agnawstick

If one genuinely believes that their mother, father, priest, role model is in the room with them, one does not screw the neighbor's wife, steal a grape from the supermarket, lie, cheat, steal, etc.

Yet those who claim to have faith that God is all knowing, all seeing, do that in front of him all the time. If Jimmy Swaggart saw the holy ghost on the bed with him and the hooker with his own eyes, would he have received oral favors?

I truly don't believe that believers believe. They certainly don't act like they do. My definition of "christian sin" is lack of faith. You simply wouldn't do the same thing in full view of your parents, yet you do it with God sitting on the bed with you? I think not, if one truly believed. You believe that your parents will be home any second, you don't feel up your girlfriend on the living room sofa, yet if your parents are not due back for 6 hours, you do it in front of God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and your dead grandma who are watching you go at it from their perch in heaven.

Can anybody explain it to me? I would be terrified to sin if I believed. Holy crap. I am going to live here 60-100 years, and if I screw up, and am not repentant, I am going to burn for eternity. Oh well, Nancy Sue is a hottie... Hey God... ya mind turning your head for a sec?

Citrusponge

As long as you repent and ask forgiveness, God won't hold your sins against you. It's the faith that counts, not the works..

JGL53

Exactly. it's all about belief. I.e., IF you can believe without evidence (have faith) in the prescribed religious nonsense, THEN you will get an ultimate reward. IF you just can't get it together to believe by faith in the prescribed religious nonsense, THEN you get an ultimate punishment.

The choices are crystal clear.

agnawstick

It really doesn't address the point. Eventually your parents might forgive you for sleeping in their bed and doing your mother's bridge partner, but ya still wouldn't do it if they were in the room.

God allegedly is in the room. Forget the works, faith thing. James had it right, without works, faith is dead. It is a cop out. If you do anything immoral "in front of God" that you wouldn't do in front of your parents, you are full of it. You would be so guilty, ashamed, nervous to let your parents see you lie, steal, cheat that is restrains your behaviour. Even when you are an adult and they can't send you to your room or cut your allowance, you still modify your behaviour in front of them, but... not God.

It's a psychological device. If I half ass believe in God, I get saved if there is a heaven, so why not. I still will do things in front of him I wouldn't do in front of Sister Mary, but I am not even sure he is here.

Magus55

Since God is omniscient, its impossible to do anything he doesn't know about. Even if you haven't committed a particular sin yet, God knows you will do it. That isn't the point - God knows very well that we are gonna sin - we are in a sinful, corrupted world, and corrupted bodies - its inevitable. The thing He looks for is - do you try to turn from that sin, and if you do sin, do you repent of it? Or do you continue to do it and not care?

Yes, faith without works is dead. That doesn't mean works are a requirement to be saved. Works come after being saved, as an outward sign of your inner change by the Holy Spirit. Faith is all thats required to be saved, however - how can you possibily be saved, if you still live a life of sin? Thats a contradiction - which is what it means to say faith without works are dead.

If you claim to have faith in Jesus, and claim to be saved, yet you continue to purposely and routinely sin without caring - how can you possibly be saved? Those who are saved, turn their life to Jesus and repent of sins, those who aren't saved, don't care.

TiredJim

Magus, can you even begin to prove any of the things you say?

Secular Pinoy

Nah, argument by assertion is his trademark. See his evasions on the Messianic Jew threads.

emotional

Is Jimmy Swaggart saved? According to Magus, he isn't. Going to a prostitute shows he isn't saved. Swaggart may have confessed with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, yet he isn't saved. So much for the old canard that all you have to do is believe in Jesus in order to be saved. All this shows just how empty this system of salvation by faith is. Salvation by faith is a crock. Only works really count.

agnawstick

Take this away from the christian aspect. Just say you are following a certain philospher, who says that you should do A,B,C.
Even if you don't, if most people do, they will carry the slack for you, so you will benefit from it anyways.

You say you believe, and end up doing bupkis, while loudly proclaiming your belief in the philosopher. Any christian who doesn't get on his knees and repent before doing anything sinful is kidding themselves. Those who do so after are being superstitious. They don't believe in God enough to change their behaviour, but enough to try to get cheap grace after each screw up.

I work with a fundie with that viewpoint. He lies, he steals, he tries to get away from paying workers who remodel his house an honest wage, yet he feels so justified that his faith is going to save him. He does not in the least bit believe that he should behave himself other than sexually as proscribed by Paul. Anything else, can be ignored.

Many fundies are twisted agnostics. They are half ass covering both bases. Half doing what they think God wants, while screwing over their fellow man and woman just in case the heaven thing doesn't work out.