Amos

So would I because it really was the cause of the Reformation. Catholics hold that Jesus died for the sins of his world and as he did so must we die for the sins of of our world. eg. pick up our cross and follow his example. Protestants, on the other hand, say that Jesus did for their sins and now they don't have to.Augustine did not make that up because Original Sin is a reality that can't be made up but must be annihilated through atonement. This concept was crystal clear to Augustine and that is why he could defend it so well in Church doctrine.

Amos

Of course he could have but that would have been at the cost of our dominion. You seem to forget that a pair of opposites cannot be conceived to exist without each other and so earth cannot be conceived to exist without heaven. Heaven here is our ideal and without this we would have just remained like all other animals and not know the difference between good and evil (food wisdom and beauty).

abe smith

I do not (as so-frequently herebefore) understand Amos's immediately-preceding post. Because I am reluctant to engage in discussion w/ Amos ( because I do not tune to his wavelength...), if someone else understands what he means here, can you explain him to me? Thank you.
Or perhaps I am not meant to understand....

Amos

Hello Abe, please let me help you think this through a little because you seem to have everything backwards.

If original sin was the cause of our humanity it must follow that without a humanity there would be no human death.

Mankind was created immortal and it was because of the fall of man (though Original Sin) that our humanity (the human condition) was created. The human condition is both good and bad (read Gen.3): it was good for gaining wisdom, beauty and food (to gain dominion) and it was bad because we would know that we would die. Nobody ever said that without a human condition mankind does die but it only says that, as humans, we would know that we would die because our memory is part of the human condition.

If mortality is a human condition Immortality is/must be the native condition of man. If, then, we die to our human condition prior to our physical death it would follow that we are immortal after that event and we can just die without the mortal human condition being present when we physically die.

Did that make it a little easier for you?

abe smith

to get into discussion w/ Amos, because I am not competent to discuss w/ him.
Regarding this immediately-foregoing business here at this thread started by Invictus, I was attempting to answer Invictus's and BAC's specific (theological) inquiries ; and my answers to their questions were NOT statements of any opinions of my own (I think all that stuff is garbage!).
I was trying my best to tell Invictus & BAC what the Roman Catholics's explanation about all that junk is (about Original Sin, the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, the Redemption, etc. ). Hence please advise Amos NOT to start an argument w/ me about these ridiculous assertions; let him take it up w/ his local Ordinary = Bishop of the Diocese in wh/ Amos practises Catholicism.
Note that when I asked Amos recently the Demand direct, "Are you a Catholic?" he replied that Yes, he is a Catholic; and /but he doesn't (bother with) the Catechism........
*I* do not believe ANY of that trash; hence Amos need not take issue w/ me about any of it. (Thank you very much).
I advised Invictus & BAC to take their qq to their Bishop(s), if they want accurate answers. Abe

Amos

Hello abe, that has nothing to do with competence but more with your hatred of the CC wherein you are completely blinded towards truth. The Catholic Church is by far the greatest and should really be loved because of it.

As for me being a good Catholic? You don't have to study the cathechism to be a good Catholic and never think that a protestant is able to judge who is and who is not a good Catholic because our measure is different. For example, if Catholics are sinners could this mean that big sinners are better Catholics?

A more philosophic concept of sin is the coming together of a positive with a negative. This intercourse leads to creation wherefore all is created in sin and sin is good because all that which is created is good. The only problem with creation is that it required division first and after this initial split a movement towards opposites is needed prior to the act of creation. In this division (and taking opposites stands) we encounter sickness and pain ( the curses upon man and woman) and that is why a good church is needed.

BTW a health conscious nation/person is evidence of an spiritually impoverished nation/person.

Rational BAC

Maybe it is just me--but most of the time I haven't a clue what Amos is talking about.

I asked very simple and very basic questions. I would like very simple and very basic answers.

I am not Catholic. I try to read and understand the Bible as best I can.---as any good Protestant is supposed to do. I consider my mind just as good as St Augustine's or St Paul's or anybody's. ----------as far as understanding the Gospels in the Bible.

I do not find original sin to be there in the Bible in any obvious sense. I do not find the reason that Jesus died on the cross to be that He died to save us from our sins--original or otherwise. It is just not there in the Gospels as far as I can determine

I have nothing against being corrected on this. But do it in plain language please. And stay away from Catholic catechism-as some sort of proof--that is meaningless to this very sceptical Episcopalian cherry picking protestant.

Rational BAC

Remember that I am a cherry picking Christian--so even if you can prove to me that there is such a thing as original sin or that Jesus did die on the cross for the express purpose of saving us from that original sin or the sins we have personally commited in our lifetime------------

---------That does not mean that I will not throw it out as absurd.

But---the funny thing is --nobody has come up with anything to establish in any obvious sense in the Bible either original sin or the idea that Jesus died to save us from any kind of sin at all.

So far my idea that the sole reason Jesus died on the cross was to show mankind that an afterlife was possible has not been seriously tested in any way.

I have read Genesis many times. So Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden of Eden and lost their immortality for eating a forbidden apple. ---BIG FRIGGING DEAL--- That was their problem and not mine.

If anything I benefited from that. Who in their right mind would want to live eternally on the Earth? After the first few thousand years I am sure that most anybody would be bored to tears and want the whole damned thing to end. Thanks for eating that apple Adam and Eve.

Now an afterlife is a whole 'nother story. I do not want my consciousness to die for eternity. And the idea of an eternal heaven is very enticing.

Amos

If your mind is a good as you say it is why don't you write your own gospel?

Rational BAC

Great post Amos--

--- Although I don't plan to write any Gospels anytime soon.

Now if you could write like that more often--on your longer posts, --so clearly and understandably ---maybe I and others might understand better what you are talking about.