Deke

If you think about it, God is the ultimate Project Manager. Infinitely long ago, He put together a plan that accounts for: every action and thought of every being, every movement of every infinitely small particle of matter, every outcome of every potential fork in the road of time. He must have billions of subsections for each human being…I suspect mine might look like this:

Task #334,656,889,903,461,883,201: Create soul for Deke
Task #334,656,889,903,461,883,202: Make Deke’s parents conceive what will be Deke
Task #334,656,889,903,461,883,203: Have Deke’s mom birth him

And then subsequent tasks would account for my every thought and deed up until my death and subsequent sentencing (Heaven vs. Hell).

In any case, I and many others, have often pondered the existence of my creator. So, there must be quite a few tasks in my subsection that account for this. I suspect there are tasks like:

Task #334,656,889,903,461,909,333: Have Deke read “Contact” by Carl Sagan when he’s 16
Task #334,656,889,903,461,909,395: Let “Contact” influence Deke in such a way that it firmly strengthens his growing doubt over my existence.
Task #334,656,889,903,462,556,221: Have Deke formulate an opinion about me based on many years of discussion, reading, and thinking – and have this opinion be that I don’t exist.

Now, suppose that last task took place today. And suppose tomorrow, I realize I can exercise my “Free Will”, and go ahead and opt to accept God (Jesus too). So, then that would look like:

Task #334,656,889,903,462,556,305: Have Deke conclude that I actually do exist and have him accept me and my son as his lord and personal savior.

And then suppose a few years from now, I change my mind again:

Task #334,656,889,903,499,434,103: Have Deke recant his latest feelings about me and reject me once again.

Anywho, it sure feels like “Free Will” to me…I can go around Free Willing left and right, changing my mind according to who wins the Superbowl, etc. But in actuality, there is nothing I can do that can alter the plan already laid out.

Now one could argue that God has contingency plans for me - that is, perhaps God set up the overall plan to account for my decision one way or the other…and you could argue that in this way, I actually do have a choice. But that doesn’t change the fact that God knows which one I’ll choose (moreover, it seems rather useless for God to plan for a contingency He knows won’t happen).

And so, I must conclude that if I go to my grave (and subsequent hot spot) rejecting God, that is precisely what He had planned for me. And since I can assume God’s overall plan is for the general good of the universe, I can be comforted by the notion that I am just doing my part – even if that means eternal suffering.

So in a very ironic way, I am actually serving God by living out the plan He created for me. Now it’s not clear how my eternal suffering contributes to the overall good of the universe, but hey, I’m just a miniscule resource on the Big Project Plan, who am I to question the Project Manager?

Your thoughts?

Deke

emotional

No, He isn't. He created the universe 15 billion years ago, letting it run freely according to the natural law He devised.



He knows all, but you still have free will (within the limitations of natural cause and effect).



God's knowing of all past, present and future does not contradict your having free will. The future is yours to shape, except for what natural cause and effect obstructs.



"Hot spot", "eternal suffering" - I gather you are addressing the Christian scenario of eternal hell for disbelieving. I'm sorry to see so many people pondering on that blackmail. This is nothing but the system of evil men, of power-hungry priests. You will not go to hell for disbelieving in God.

We have free will and personal responsibility for our actions. Saying "it was God's plan" is a poor excuse for wriggling out of responsibility.

Deke

I wrote: If you think about it, God is the ultimate Project Manager.

Emotional replied: No, He isn't. He created the universe 15 billion years ago, letting it run freely according to the natural law He devised.

Emotional, anyone who can write up a project plan as extensive as one that accounts for the entire universe, and then not have to change that plan, at all, for 15 billion years, is a pretty awesome Project Manager. I should know, I am one, and we're lucky if we don't have to change our plans daily.

Emotional writes: God's knowing of all past, present and future does not contradict your having free will. The future is yours to shape, except for what natural cause and effect obstructs.

Well let's think about this for a moment. It sure feels to me like I have free will - I can exercise my free will tomorrow and choose to accept God; and then go free willin' the next day and switch back. No problem.

But since we both agree that God has a plan for past, present and future, nothing I can do in the present can change the past or alter His plan for the future.

Suppose tomorrow I do exercise my free will and accept Jesus. Well, when it comes to my subsection in God's plan for the universe, there must be a line item that reads:

Task #434,565,123,894,007,334: On June 25th, 2003, Deke will choose to accept me

Everything I do was planned by God, inasmuch as He knew it was going to happen. So, if I ultimately choose not to accept Him, welp, He must have designed me that way - whatever His reason might be.

Correct?

Deke

emotional

No, not correct. He knows what will happen, but it's not a plan. Nothing is planned; everything just happens, according to cause and effect, and God's knowing it all does not contradict that. There is no contradiction between God's foreknowledge and creaturely free will.

Deke

Emotional: No, not correct. He knows what will happen, but it's not a plan.

So, prior to creating the universe, God knows how everything in the universe He’s about to create will turn out. Then He has to go about the business of implementing the universe in such a manner that events indeed do match His knowledge of the future. This sounds an awful lot like a plan to me.

I think what you are suggesting is…

Emotional: Nothing is planned; everything just happens


Ok. But consider these two statements:

1. Prior to setting the universe in motion, God knew how every event in the universe would turn out.

2. God set the universe in motion

So God knows how the universe will turn out, and then He sets it in motion. Don’t you think He had to make sure that the way He constructed the universe resulted in one that matched His knowledge aforethought? Perhaps He didn’t “plan” it in the way we think about planning, but He certainly wasn’t random about it.

Emotional: There is no contradiction between God's foreknowledge and creaturely free will.

I’m not suggesting there is. I am agreeing that we have “free will” inasmuch as we can change our minds about things as we see fit. All I am saying is that whatever decisions we do make, God knew beforehand what we’d decide. God knew that He would create me, He knew that He’d wire my brain in a particular fashion such that when I read various books, and engaged in various conversations, that I would ultimately choose to reject Him.

That’s all I’m saying…that He knew ahead of time that the experiences of my life, combined with the physiology of my brain and the disposition of my soul, would lead me to conclude He doesn’t exist.

Deke

I ate Pascal's Wafer

If God created all life, then there is a contradiction between God's foreknowledge and 'creaturely' free will. If God knew what each particle (and, by extension, each person) would do before he created it, then he had the opportunity to change this such that it acts slightly differently. If God is omniscient, then there is no way for him to create free will. It's simply a contradiction.

Of course you could argue that God is not omniscient, but that would be that he wouldn't know what you would do before you did it.

-Nick

emotional

We have free will within limitations: decisional free will to put our hands in a flame or not, and no metaphysical free will to catch a disease or not (for example). Blind fate is the sum total of all direct cause and effect. We determine the small picture, but the big picture is already predetermined.

Perhaps there is a confusion on the meaning of "free will": the personal-decisional free will (the small picture) versus the universal-metaphysical free will (the big picture). If by free will the latter is meant, then no, there is no free will. As William Provine put it: there is no free will in the sense of being able to make uncoerced decisions.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

I understand that. What I was getting at is how can we even have decisional free will? If our thoughts and actions are dependent on the brain (maybe the brain is just a receiver for a supernatural signal, in which case our thoughts are done by some supernatural entity elsewhere, but I doubt it), and the brain is composed of matter, then God should even have ultimate control of how that matter is arranged and how the impulses within the brain will fire. In effect, he would control our thoughts and even decisions from the very beginning, and at the same time give us the illusion that it is us that is making the decisions. If God created all matter and energy in the universe, and if humans make decisions using the brain (which is made up of that same matter and energy), then I don't see a way to reconcile an omniscient deity with free will (even decisional free will).

-Nick

emotional

What's this nonsense? Decisional free will is as clear a fact as the Sun! We all KNOW we can decide to put a hand on a flame or not. Your own typing this message here on these boards is an act of decisional free will. If you go on doubting decisional free will, then you'll be going the way of solipsism and maya yet. Unless one has a physical problem with the control mechanism (the brain), one has decisional free will.

You are not free to have a good memory or a disposition towards a good temper, but within the limitations of birth factors, of course you have the ability to decide on actions.

Deke

I suppose the task is comparing our actions with the future that God already knows. For example, suppose God in His omniscience, knows that tomorrow I will decide to put my hand on a red hot stove. And suppose tomorrow comes and my hand quivers over the hot stove. At this moment, if I my actions are to be in accord w/God’s knowledge, my brain will send a signal to my arm to lower my hand to the stove. To me, I’ll be making my own decision (as unfortunate to my hand as it might be), and to God, I’ll be acting in accordance with what He already knew I’d do. Problem resolved.

The real guts of this discussion is the implication of this interplay with regard to non-believers. Each time I ponder God’s existence, He knows my current thoughts, and knows my future thoughts. To date, I have concluded that He doesn’t exist, which implies God knowingly created a universe in which at least one of His creations will not accept His existence as fact. And since everything God does is ultimately good for the universe, we can only conclude that non-believers are only “living up to the expectations” that God had for them.

My non-belief is precisely what God knew would happen, and since God is Good, I can conclude that my non-belief is Good.

Yes? No? Maybe so?

Deke