Ronin

Because christianity tells others that they and their children are evil in need of torturing or conquering...and that is never good.

You may keep saying that this is not true, but the world and the abrahamic rule book tells me otherwise.

I am an atheist/secular humanist, Sabine...the limiting conditions placed on a harmonious world-view comes from intolerant religions and their promoters...even the most liberal ones who are somehow able to wring out some interpretive good from that horrendous book and cult.

PS ~ I am not, nor ever have been, implying that the human Sabine can not be a good person. I am only refuting the nonsensical supernatualism and distorted ethical teachings found in christianity...which you, by default, promote here.

Sabine Grant

I know.. you have expressed your rejection for the notion of a God who can inspire goodness in humans many times. But why not looking at the end result for a person such as myself? If that God concept is what gives me wings....how and why should it stand between us ,people who overall, are fully aware there is much to do in this world? we obviously agree that life is not to be a self centered experience but altruism will enrich our existence.
We agree on the essence of how we willfully mean to live our lives. We try to intervene. We are trying to keep ourselves from being oblivious and indifferent. We are working on ourselves in that process.

Ronin... I value the goodness of any individual and respect any source they wish to attribute their goodness from. It nevers interferes with my own spiritual path. How can my path interfere with your choice to follow humanism as the ultimate guide to how you will live your own life?

By the way offering your Bible to that poor little fellow was what it is all about.... finding ways to modify the misery or distress of others. Being in their shoes for an instant.
I wish for christianity to become a noble endeavor.... do not you think I grieve over the state of division and warmonging ? I want to retain the idealistic notion that there is a potential in christianity to transform human nature into an altruistic goal. I can see the potential. I can see it thru my own personal experience.

livius drusus

I have split off the Pledge discussion into the CSS thread Mumbling The Pledge. Sorry to shave off some of your pages, Muffinstuffer, but now we can get back to your regularly scheduled discussion of atheists vs missionaries.

southernhybrid

No, that is not at all what I implied. I only said they *probably* deserve poor treatment. The expression, "while I don't condone it, I can understand it" would be closer to my feelings. I have to wonder why you couldn't have just said, "I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood your intention." Instead you chose to argue and further tell me what I meant. I thought you sounded patronizing in your post to me, but you probably would deny that too.

I am sorry that you took an innocent remark and felt the need to magnify it like you did. I'll try and make myself more clear in the future.

Ronin

Yet again, I have to stop your mischaracterization of my position, Sabine.

The notion of the 'God' I most often expressly reject and refute any who support is the horrendous three headed monster of Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy poltergeist as characterized in christian lore.

Goodness is attainable realistically as a human...no imaginary tyrants needed.

I am merely refuting your claims that the Yahweh God-concept is good, my friend, and pointing out that it is also a hindrance to a full examination and appreciation of reality in plain view.

Altruism is an unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others, Sabine...the abrahamic book does not reflect this sentiment at all.


I totally agree...and we do this precisely because their are no other intervening entities in existence.

You do not interfere with my path.

We are discussing a religious topic on an internet bulletin board with this debate in mind...should we have met at a cancer or MDA website, I doubt the issue would have been raised at all.

My perspective is that by refuting the assorted theistic hocus pocus that is mindlessly perpetuated, the world can become a better place.

I appreciate your forthcoming respect.

...and it did not work for shit.

I have since found that intervening physically during such assaults is, by far, the better course...now I can really protect and serve as no Gods are available to do so.

Life can be beautiful, profound, and awe-inspiring, even without an irate God threatening us with eternal torment -- or God's self-appointed representative spokespersons imposing their various and assorted notions of proper God-subservient behaviors on everyone else.

You may see potential in that dogma, Sabine, I merely point out that it is blatantly lacking.

Muffinstuffer

Hmm....can't remember the last time I felt the need to go out and conquer or torture my non-believing next door neighbor. Oh wait....actually, there WAS that one time where their dog took a dump in my backyard. Yeah, THAT time I felt like smiting him.

Exactly HOW does Christianity tell others they are in need of torturing or conquering? In general, YES, Christianity does tell 'others' that they are evil - or, put another way, born with a sinful nature - but this includes EVERYONE...not just non-Christians.

And while the Abrahamic rule is not exactly null and void, Jesus came to fulfill the law. The Abrahamic rule(s) is a measuring stick of sorts, but this is why we are told to strive to emulate Jesus...because if we do that, by virtue of the fact that Jesus came not to replace the law, but to FULFILL it....we will be fulfilling the law indirectly.

You make it sound as if NO religion at ALL is capable of doing any good. None. I will grant you that from the perspective that Christianity claims to be 'the one true religion' (or, rather, that the Founder claims to be 'the way/truth/life'), the religion is 'intolerant' since it claims to be the right way, which makes all others wrong by default. But I keep hearing about all the injustice and wrong that religion has done to people...and, strangely, NOTHING is mentioned about the miracles that occur daily in the missionary fields, or the good works that churches do, and so on and so forth. Sure, organizations/people who are not affiliated with any church are completely capable of doing the same thing. But it seems that around here, the prevalent view is that ONLY those organizations related to a religion or faith are the ones that will lead people astray or do harm to them.

Muffinstuffer

No problem. I'm just glad I am still allowed here.

Selsaral

I guess we need to be careful about using the word 'christian', because there are so many different kinds. But most of the christians I know assure me all non-christians burn in hell for all eternity simply for not believing in the existence of the magical sky daddy. If that's not 'telling others they are in need of torturing or conquering', I don't know what is.

Ronin

One word...Hell.

Surely you've heard of it.

Christians believe that the following is real and true of honest, good and loving non-believers:

2 Thessalonians ~

1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

~yawn~

Fine, then I suppose you know who gave this loving order:

Luke ~

19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

...Hey, that sounds like a First Amendment violation to me, Jesus...aren't you the foundation of American culture?

Oh, and exactly which of Yahweh's old rules should we dismiss?

Any at all or do we cherry pick?

Don't worry, I get that overly emotional and distracting claim quite often.

The fact is that I refute any proponents of any religion that claims to be all good in spite of its own lore.

Humans will be good and do good based on their humanity...no deities required.

There is nothing 'miraculous' or supernatural about doing good works.

Again, I merely refute the claims that Yahweh/Christ/Ghost is a reliable or even worthy role model based on your own christian lore.

I've yet to have a Christian, liberal or fundamental, reconcile what we all know about real goodness and love with that noxious book.

Religion divides us, Muffinstuffer, while it is our human characteristics that bind us to each other.

I respect all good works, regardless of their creed.

I simply actively refute the nonsensical claims of supernaturalists.

No harm, no foul.

Muffinstuffer

Sure. I'm quite aware of hell. And I'm aware of the fact that Christians believe this is real for honest, loving, good non-Christians. I don't make any apologies for it. However, the vast majority of ministries and missionaries do not go around today preaching hellfire and brimstone, whether or not people DO go to hell if they are not saved. They go around preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

First, considering I don't have my Bible here, I can't really offer much of a response to that particular Scripture. I'll check it out when I get home.

Second, I did not say that Yahweh's old rules were null and void. I said that while they are NOT null and void, they are not what we should strive to fulfill because there is NO WAY we ('we' being Christians) can fulfill all of them, and the rules, in and of themselves, can not save us. However, Jesus DID come to save us by dying on the Cross, and He DID fulfill the rules, and it is our faith in Him that saves us, so we should strive to emulate HIM, and not strive to fulfill the rules. The Pharisees fulfilled the rules to the letter, and look where it got them.

First, I wasn't gnashing my teeth or being overly emotional when I wrote that. I was getting to a point, which is that while there are A LOT of religions that cause A LOT of harm, whether by their actions or their beliefs, there is also a lot of good done by them or in their name. I do not think that it is the religion itself that causes harm....it's the people. After all, religion is manmade. (Which is why I hate it when people ask me "Are you religious?" I don't need a church to pray to or worship God.)

Second, the Christian 'religion' was/is not all good. Jesus was/is.

I didn't say there was. Which is also why good works are not what saves Christians, because anyone can do good works.

How so, then? No offense intended, but every time I ask this question, I keep getting 'Well check this out' and then get OT Scripture quoted to me...not Jesus' words.

Well that makes perfect sense, because anyone who can not accept the notion of God/Jesus/the Bible being the Word of God, is not going to be able to reconcile the human notions of real goodness and love with the Bible.