GeoTheo

Are their any atheists here that think Christianity can be a positive force in individual peoples lives and in society?
I have made an observation recently that many Fundamental Baptists come from a family background of some rough characters. Hard drinking violent redncks in many cases.
I have observed non-Christian members of certian peoples families and also certian individuals before and after salvation. I see a real, positive difference. Take your typical roofer for example, Main hobbies: Drinking, womanizing, getting in bar fights.
Now I know it is not good to generalize and stereotype, but I actually worked on a roofing crew and I know what roofers are generally like and I am thinking of one in particular that became a Christian and gave up drinking and carousing and became a much better citizen.
So How would all you atheists that await the day Christianity dies out respond to this?
Would this roofers life be improved by becoming an atheist?
Let us suppose for the sake of arguement Christianity is false and he is unjustified in his belief that he is pleasing God by not drinking and not creating more illigitimate Children and refraining from assaulting people at Bars.
He is of the mistaken belief that God will reward him for always putting in an honest days work and not slacking off, not because he wants to please the foreman, but because he wants to please God.
How would he be better off being an atheist?

Perchance

GeoTheo:

I don't think that atheism necessarily works for everyone, any more than Christianity does. However, I have met many Christians who would agree with the first part of that sentence but not the second. They feel people should convert, that it's all right to indoctrinate children by teaching them that all other religions are false and evil, and that it's all right to approach people in emotional pain and try to get them to convert.

(Not all, but many of those I've talked to).

I have a problem with people who want to convert people, Christian or atheist. If someone comes to me voluntarily, then I would be happy to talk to him or her. (I've felt no guilt about arguing with Jehovah's Witnesses until they got upset in the past, since they were the ones approaching me). But Christianity doesn't. So someone who wants to be a Christian is fine. Someone who wants other peoplet to be Christians because he is will inspire debate from me. Someone who wants me to be a Christian will have a fight on his hands.

I think it can work- but not for everyone. And if this guy who converted feels he's a better person now, good! Hooray for him.

But some of the "sins" that conversion to Christianity is supposed to "cure" (like homosexuality, and sometimes drinking, swearing, and so on) aren't seen as "sins" by the person until the Christian convinces him they are. This is where I get skeptical.

If the fact that the guy who coverted "drank and caroused" hurt him and other people, then maybe it's good that he converted. If it didn't hurt him or others, and he had no one trying to stop him until he became a Christian, and he didn't feel the need to stop himself, then I would raise a cynical eyebrow.

-Perchance.

GeoTheo

Well Perchance,
You are not really who I was aiming this question at since you seem to me to be not very militant.
However I am a bit puzzled by the idea that violent drunks don't hurt anyone and that they themselves are somehow unaware they do.

Perchance

GeoTheo,

Violent drunks do hurt people; I may not have been reading your original post closely enough, since it seemed to be more focused on "drinking and carousing." However:

1) that doesn't mean that Christianity is the answer for all violent drunks (AA notwithstanding).

and

2) I haven't often found a Christian testimony that makes a distinction that fine between behaviors. "Alcoholism" is a common evil that someone gets "saved" from. But that's the only word used. Someone who becomes fiery against alcohol often doesn't seem to distinguish between a violent drunk and someone who has a glass of red wine once a week.

So basically my list for a conversion that I think actually works goes like this:

1) Person has a problem that hurts someone (with some, like violent drunkenness, this is very easy to argue; with others, like homosexuality, I really don't see any problem).

2) This person knows that he or she has a problem (as opposed to being convinced against her will, or during emotional trauma when it's very easy for other people to influence him).

3) This person examines Christianity and decides that it will help.

4) This person becomes a Christian.

And actually, at least for myself, I would have to add steps 5, 6, and 7:

5) I become convinced that Christianity is actually superior to other systems, as opposed to becoming Christian just because that was the first solution offered.

6) I actually feel some kind of emotional connection to Christianity (none at the moment).

7) I wait a while and make sure the decision is helping over time, not just in a single "I got saved!" moment.

A lot of people don't seem to go through any of these, which troubles me, and why a lot of the "testimonies" I've read have a depressing sameness to them.

-Perchance.

Debbie T

Because he would grow up and take responsibility for his actions. Be responsible for doing a honest day's work for an honest day's pay. He would do it because he he realizes that he doesn't want to be irresponsible. He makes a realization that the children he creates are his responsibility. But mainly he does it for himself and those around him. It doesn't take a god to do this.

Debbie T

Viti

Did you seriously just use the Argument from Roofing?

MadMordigan

Nothing is quite so pathetic as seeing someone abandon their integrity in order to believe something they know to be untrue.

Are you seriously arguing that we should ignore an untruth if it makes us feel better?

Talulah

Exactly. This is exactly what I was thinking.

Goliath

Well said, Debbie T!

Why do something with xianity that you can do without xianity?

Why be born again, when you can just grow up?

Sincerely,

Goliath