christ-on-a-stick

Greetings all,

I posted on this almost exactly a year ago and only got 2 responses at the time (sniffle). So....I'M BRINGING IT BACK!!!

I am interested in all opinions, and *especially* those of theists who believe in a literal & eternal hell (fire, wailing & gnashing of teeth etc.)

My fundy mom believes in a literal hell and has occasionally expressed "concern" that I might go there , so I've had a few conversations with her on the topic. One of her standard lines is that our "Loving Father", God, doesn't *send* anybody to hell - they "send themselves" there by making a choice not to believe in him (and Jesus etc.) and gain the wondrous gift of eternal life, etc., etc.

One of my objections to this scenario is the whole concept of it being a person's "free choice" (setting aside other complications such as a person's honest disbelief, thereby making it somewhat difficult to "reject" something that they genuinely don't believe in.)

To get to the point of it... I concocted the following scenario for her.....I like to call it the question of "Is God the Great Cosmic Rapist?"

I asked her,

"How would you feel if you were walking through the park one day, and a man grabbed you, held a knife to your throat, and said "spread your legs or I'll cut your throat!" - so you comply, and he rapes you and lets you go. You run to the nearest police station and tell them what happenned... but they refuse to take a police report for rape. Why? Well, you CHOSE to spread your legs - so it wasn't rape. You reply, "but he was holding a knife to my throat!" and they insist, it was your free choice. He didn't force your legs apart, you opened them voluntarily because you didn't want to have your throat cut".

She seemed befuddled by my analogy (as may many of you... but I hope not!)

I went on to point out that most civilized people don't consider things a "free choice" when there is a real threat of violence involved. It's called coercion, or terrorism, or force by threat - not a "free choice".

The alternate example, which would apply to the "you send yourself to hell" apologetic, would be that in the rape scenario
you *refuse* to open your legs and he slices your throat and you die. The perp is caught... but not convicted, because witnesses back up his story that... HE GAVE YOU A CHOICE.

So obviously, you chose to have your throat cut... not his reponsibility!

So if the Loving Father God *does* people to an everlasting torment, would that make him the Murdering Cosmic Rapist?

oriecat

I think that's a good analogy, myself!

Selsaral

Yeah I don't have anything interesting to add, except the cynic in me wants to congratulate you on the well-written, pleasantly cynical, and rather snide little essay you wrote. I think your analogy is excellent also. I will say however, things like this have no impact on a real christian. They can apologize-away anything.

Shake

Which would be like suicide then, right? Since you're "choosing" to end your life! Don't most Xian denominations frown on suicide as well? Damned if you do, damned if you don't! :banghead:

Proctors_Gambit

But there is no possible positive outcome in your scenario, whereas christians have heaven.

wade-w

Good analogy, COAS! I think you've hit it dead on. And in the same vein as Shake's observation about suicide, if you spread your legs, then you are also guilty of the "sin" of fornication!

Wyz_sub10

Also, the act of reporting occurs after.


BUt let's address those two points with the following change:

- Attacked in park
- knife held to your throat

The attacker says "spread you legs or I'll kill you. Don't worry, I promise it will be the best sex of your life - paradise. Trust me."

*That's* a little closer because you never really know the outcome - will it be good? Will he cut your throat? You have to make a decision based on what you know *at the time*.

Phanes

I think that analogy is fine as is for a certain type of Christian, but "New Age" and liberal Christians are becoming more and more popular, I believe. Instead of getting a lake of fire, you're just separated from God. I'm not sure what exactly being separated from God entails (I'm sure it varies depending on who you ask), but it would probably be more a case of "Spread your legs for the best sex ever; otherwise, your loss."

Of course both of these analogies are a little bit off in the sense that you can only have sex once (i.e. your decision at death is final).

Amie

christ on a stick please tell your mom I am planning to smuggle you into Heaven with me

problem solved.

christ-on-a-stick

LOL Amie... I will pass that along

It's kinda sad though because I think it's a horrible thing to have to go through life believing that your loved ones (who you
know are kind and decent people, are going to be tortured over the great bbq pit forever and ever. I told her once that I felt sorry for her that she had to live with such a negative and, I think I said, hateful belief. We don't talk much about her beliefs anymore (or at all for that matter but that's another thread) because I always come up with points and arguments that she can't seem to explain.

BTW, IIRC you don't believe in a literal hell right? Also you are Catholic I think - what about purgatory? I am just interested... I was raised Protestant and always thought all that limbo stuff was far out