Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 02-02-2002, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andrew_theist:
Hello turtonm

a) an actual miracle by Jesus
b) an actual miracle by some other deity, like Odin, Ngai or Shiva, intervening for the Eff of It.
c) a random miracle caused by non-theistic supernatural intervention, like by Buddhist chants channeled through a Buddhist in the crowd
d) the outcome of the psychic power of the crowd, focused through the talisman of Jesus' name, and thus not even remotely theistic at all.
e) aliens intervening with superior technology, and thus not even a violation of naturalism.
You can see the problem. It is impossible to rule out other roots for your miracle, and thus, impossible to even conclude that it is theistic in nature, let alone one from your god.

For the sake of this argument it doesn’t matter what deity or if any deity does the miracle. It would suffice that it served as evidence of immaterial (or supernatural) forces operating in the material world.

Read e again carefully. Aliens are NOT immaterial.

pug846 · 02-02-2002, 12:34 PM

Andrew, I think the point Michael is making is that we have no reason to necessaily assume there was an intervention by what someone might call a God. I would have to be given reason to grant that God was behind this miracle and that was the best explanation.

If there was indeed miracles, I don't think that would be go very well for my conception of God. What type of God would intervene in one case for some reason and not in others? Why would God heal this girl's leg and not help a starving kid out in Africa.

Regardless, I would always be willing ot view the evidence of a miracle if it seems plausible. If you have such evidence, by all means, stop hiding it and show it here!

Andrew_theist · 02-02-2002, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Christ:
So, God, being all-powerful, and quite merciful, decides to heal some rich American's leg while millions of people are starving in Rwanda and Ethiopia and Somalia, while hundreds of thousands are being mudered, butchered, and whatnot because of their race or religion. Go figure.

Hello JC, do you need some help carrying that large broad brush around? I don't recall saying anything about where this took place. I take it evidence to you is irrelevant since all it could do is confirm the existence of God who you believe is a butthead?

Andrew_theist · 02-02-2002, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Christ:


Read e again carefully. Aliens are NOT immaterial.

I suggest you read again!

Panta Pei · 02-02-2002, 01:05 PM

Andrew_theist wrote (in a response to his typically vague and hypothetical xtian musings):

"I don't recall saying anything about where this took place."

Let's have it Andrew. Are your claims real (or even in the words of Spongebob Squarepants "Really really really real?).

Or is it, as most of us suspect having dealt with Jack Chick and others of the same ilk for all these years, just another of the lame "What if" ponderings that never even remotely apply to reality?

I see you respond only to those you perceive have left you some wiggle room for further hypothetical assertions and have ignored the rest

How honest have you been?

Confess your sins

~ Steve, simple human, here, now.

Andrew_theist · 02-02-2002, 01:06 PM

Judging by some of the responses...

If there was indeed miracles, I don't think that would be go very well for my conception of God. What type of God would intervene in one case for some reason and not in others? Why would God heal this girl's leg and not help a starving kid out in Africa.

clearly some have not read or understood the original post.

Now miracles alone would be no reason to believe in God but would all here concede this is evidence of a miracle? And if miracles happen would that tend to be more in favor of a theistic worldview as opposed to an atheist/materialist worldview? Would it be enough you could no longer call yourself an atheist?

As I have already conceded for the sake of argument this is no reason to believe in any God including the God of the bible. So the 'I would reject it because I think the God of the bible is a loser' arguments are not needed. It raises a good point though. If there is a creator of the world who is a butthead does the level of evidence requirement go down?

Panta Pei · 02-02-2002, 01:11 PM

HelenSL:

Sometimes you are just downright devious <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

~ Steve

pug846 · 02-02-2002, 01:16 PM

But what do you mean by a "theistic" worldview. I think most of us are reading into what you are saying here because we get these types of posts quite often.

On the fact of it, I don't think I would count it as "evidence" for either worldview until I could assign a probability to it, which I don't think would be possible.

No, the level of evidence for me to accept a "butthead" God wouldn't go down, but the type of evidence that would be relevant to a "butthead" God existing is quite different than evidence I would take that an omni-max God existed.

bd-from-kg · 02-02-2002, 01:17 PM

Andrew_theist:

Quote:

What if I provided a medical case of a broken leg that healed in one day, sworn by 4 doctors and I had notarized x-rays (before and after) that I would submit to this board for examination and link for all to see? Now miracles alone would be no reason to believe in God but would all here concede this is evidence of a miracle?

Yes, it would certainly be evidence, but it wouldn't be sufficient evidence to justify rational belief. See Hume's An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, <a href="http://www.utm.edu/research/hume/wri/1enq/1enq-10.htm" target="_blank">Of Miracles</a>.

Quote:

If this would not be enough evidence of a supernatural event what would be?

See Richard Packman's excellent essay <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_packham/heart.html" target="_blank">The Man with No Heart: Miracles and Evidence</a>

If you have any interesting new points to raise, feel free.

Mad Kally · 02-02-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

originally posted by Andrew_theist:
What if I provided a medical case of a broken leg that healed in one day, sworn by 4 doctors and I had notarized x-rays (before and after) that I would submit to this board for examination and link for all to see? Now miracles alone would be no reason to believe in God but would all here concede this is evidence of a miracle? And if miracles happen would that tend to be more in favor of a theistic worldview as opposed to an atheist/materialist worldview? Would it be enough you could no longer call yourself an atheist?

Please provide your proof. Don't forget the name of the patient, family members, friends, names of all doctors, nurses, radiologists, etc. Where did this happen? Name of hospital or clinic? Where is all this miraculous notorized information stored?
Even if you had all this evidence, it would mean absolutly nothing to me. A god could surely do better than fixing a fracture. My fracture was healed and I'm still an atheist.

I would prefer evidence of a truly amazing miracle. Ex: A decapitated head jumping back on top of a dead body and speaking, or somthing similar.

Now, that will be the day..

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02-02-2002, 12:34 PM	#12
pug846 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,587	Andrew, I think the point Michael is making is that we have no reason to necessaily assume there was an intervention by what someone might call a God. I would have to be given reason to grant that God was behind this miracle and that was the best explanation. If there was indeed miracles, I don't think that would be go very well for my conception of God. What type of God would intervene in one case for some reason and not in others? Why would God heal this girl's leg and not help a starving kid out in Africa. Regardless, I would always be willing ot view the evidence of a miracle if it seems plausible. If you have such evidence, by all means, stop hiding it and show it here!

02-02-2002, 01:05 PM	#15
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	Andrew_theist wrote (in a response to his typically vague and hypothetical xtian musings): "I don't recall saying anything about where this took place." Let's have it Andrew. Are your claims real (or even in the words of Spongebob Squarepants "Really really really real?). Or is it, as most of us suspect having dealt with Jack Chick and others of the same ilk for all these years, just another of the lame "What if" ponderings that never even remotely apply to reality? I see you respond only to those you perceive have left you some wiggle room for further hypothetical assertions and have ignored the rest How honest have you been? Confess your sins ~ Steve, simple human, here, now.

02-02-2002, 01:06 PM	#16
Andrew_theist Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 272	Judging by some of the responses... If there was indeed miracles, I don't think that would be go very well for my conception of God. What type of God would intervene in one case for some reason and not in others? Why would God heal this girl's leg and not help a starving kid out in Africa. clearly some have not read or understood the original post. Now miracles alone would be no reason to believe in God but would all here concede this is evidence of a miracle? And if miracles happen would that tend to be more in favor of a theistic worldview as opposed to an atheist/materialist worldview? Would it be enough you could no longer call yourself an atheist? As I have already conceded for the sake of argument this is no reason to believe in any God including the God of the bible. So the 'I would reject it because I think the God of the bible is a loser' arguments are not needed. It raises a good point though. If there is a creator of the world who is a butthead does the level of evidence requirement go down?

02-02-2002, 01:11 PM	#17
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	HelenSL: Sometimes you are just downright devious <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> ~ Steve

02-02-2002, 01:16 PM	#18
pug846 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,587	But what do you mean by a "theistic" worldview. I think most of us are reading into what you are saying here because we get these types of posts quite often. On the fact of it, I don't think I would count it as "evidence" for either worldview until I could assign a probability to it, which I don't think would be possible. No, the level of evidence for me to accept a "butthead" God wouldn't go down, but the type of evidence that would be relevant to a "butthead" God existing is quite different than evidence I would take that an omni-max God existed.

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