Andrew_theist

Greetings all,

In a recent discussion I have been having I heard as I have so many times that if there was only some evidence for theism that would be all it would take for me to change my mind. I wonder if it would be that easy?

What if I provided a medical case of a broken leg that healed in one day, sworn by 4 doctors and I had notarized x-rays (before and after) that I would submit to this board for examination and link for all to see? Now miracles alone would be no reason to believe in God but would all here concede this is evidence of a miracle? And if miracles happen would that tend to be more in favor of a theistic worldview as opposed to an atheist/materialist worldview? Would it be enough you could no longer call yourself an atheist?

Or would we have to chalk this up to:

1. An unusual event with an unknown natural cause?
2. A case of hysteria by the doctors and the patient?
3. A Christian conspiracy?
4. Nothing to get excited about bones heal in 24 hours under the right conditions.

If this would not be enough evidence of a supernatural event what would be?

[Edited only to change the topic so that everybody knows this is what got the debate started.]

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Bill ]</p>

Panta Pei

Hey Andrew

I wouldn't waste your notarized x-rays on us heathens here at II.

You need to take your ground breaking claim here:

<a href="http://randio.vwh.net/research/index.html" target="_blank">http://randio.vwh.net/research/index.html</a>

I'm in it for a referral claim of only 10% of the cool mil if you win

Of course, you're probably just being typically rhetorical in order to make some sort of xtian point that's about as deep as a rain slick.

Show me the money

Vorkosigan

Sorry, Andrew, but you've run up against one of the most pperplexing problems theists face when advocating miracle claims.

Let's imagine that little Jane is accidently beheaded in an accident at the Daytona 500. Thousands of horrified witnesses see head and body fly apart. Video cameras are running as the blood drains from her mutilated body.

Suddenly her mother runs out onto the track and prays loudly to Jesus. The head rights itself, floats over to the body, re-attaches itself, and Jane sits up, none the worse for wear and...er...tear.

Now, what have we witnessed? Have we witnessed

a) an actual miracle by Jesus

b) an actual miracle by some other deity, like Odin, Ngai or Shiva, intervening for the Eff of It.

c) a random miracle caused by non-theistic supernatural intervention, like by Buddhist chants channeled through a Buddhist in the crowd

d) the outcome of the psychic power of the crowd, focused through the talisman of Jesus' name, and thus not even remotely theistic at all.

e) aliens intervening with superior technology, and thus not even a violation of naturalism.

You can see the problem. It is impossible to rule out other roots for your miracle, and thus, impossible to even conclude that it is theistic in nature, let alone one from your god.

Michael

HelenM

Michael

Don't forget this possibility: the mother has wrong doctrine and is therefore unsaved. But Satan does this miracle to further deceive her and the crowd into believing in the 'wrong' Jesus.

After all:

Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light - 2 Cor 11:14b.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. - 2 Thess 2:9-10

At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. - Matthew 24:23-24

love
Helen

Foxhole Atheist

Andrew:

Are you saying that you have proof of a medically certified broken leg healing in one day? Or, is this just some sort of “what-if” Game? Now, I have to say, that I do not believe in miracles of any sort. But, I am willing to view your evidence.

Wyrdsmyth

Well, I for one would consider that it might be a supernatural event. It certainly is unnatural for a broken leg to heal in one day...

But I have to ask you the important counter-question: At what point do you "declare" this a miracle performed by your God, and stop looking for alternative explanations?

I know it's horrible to say... but some people lie. And worse, sometimes groups of people will lie, in an effort to fool everybody else. I'm not saying these four doctors are liars, or that the dates on the X-rays are incorrect. But how can we be sure this isn't the case?

The fact that there are four doctors, instead of one, does add some credence to the case. But also, it does not totally rule out the possibility of a hoax or lie. And if it is a hoax, it may not have anything to do with the doctors at all. What if (I am just hypothesizing here) a boy broke his leg, and then the family switched one identical twin for the other... it seems like such an stupid thing to miss, but who knows... Has this been ruled out? These are they kinds of possibilities one has to look into, when investigating such a "miracle."

I think the problem with a lot of miracle claims is that they often leave open the strong possibility of hoax. They are ambiguous enough that we can never feel totally sure of them. As has often been pointed out... abandoned along the entrance to Lourdes are crutches but no artificial legs.

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]</p>

eh

Why is it that the supernatural can heal broken bones, or non visible injuries such as the flu, but can never repair a lost limb? All you have to do is provide one case of someone losing an arm, and gaining it back. Seriously, do think it's just a coincidence that only injuries that are not clearly visible can be cured? Maybe its just that whoever is behind this supernatural curtain doesn't want to found.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

So, God, being all-powerful, and quite merciful, decides to heal some rich American's leg while millions of people are starving in Rwanda and Ethiopia and Somalia, while hundreds of thousands are being mudered, butchered, and whatnot because of their race or religion. Go figure. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Mad Kally

5. A pure bullshit story.

Like an urban legend spread around on the internet, some people think they are real!

Between 30 and 40,000 children die each day some where on this planet of preventable causes and you are ignorant enough to believe that some invisible guy in the sky intervened for one jerks broken leg? My mother honestly believes that god intervened and healed my chihuahua's constipation. Stupid me, I went and paid $200 to the Veterinarian.

You will never show any evidence of a miracle because none exists.

BTW, I broke the #5 metatarsal in my right foot a couple of years ago. I waited a few days, then I went to the doctor and they put a temporary cast on my foot and lower leg. I was supposed to go back and get a permanent one. They gave me crutches too. Lo and behold I took the cast off and put the crutches under my arm and walked through all the museums in San Diego. THE BONE IN MY FOOT HEALED ALL BY ITSELF! I never even went back to see a doctor. A miracle?

Andrew,
Are you aware of the many different types of fractures?

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

Andrew_theist

Hello turtonm

a) an actual miracle by Jesus
b) an actual miracle by some other deity, like Odin, Ngai or Shiva, intervening for the Eff of It.
c) a random miracle caused by non-theistic supernatural intervention, like by Buddhist chants channeled through a Buddhist in the crowd
d) the outcome of the psychic power of the crowd, focused through the talisman of Jesus' name, and thus not even remotely theistic at all.
e) aliens intervening with superior technology, and thus not even a violation of naturalism.
You can see the problem. It is impossible to rule out other roots for your miracle, and thus, impossible to even conclude that it is theistic in nature, let alone one from your god.

For the sake of this argument it doesn’t matter what deity or if any deity does the miracle. It would suffice that it served as evidence of immaterial (or supernatural) forces operating in the material world.

You make some interesting points though. The scenario you wrote about is significantly more powerful in that you have tape and loads of witnesses. You note that even in a case like that, one can still cling to natural causes by invoking unseen aliens. So in effect you would agree with me that when an atheist claims they are objective reviewers of the evidence and if only there was some compelling evidence of the supernatural they would change there minds that this is actually a bogus claim? And the theist with the best of intentions attempting to produce such evidence is really engaged in an act of folly since even the invocation of aliens could be thought of as more likely? So when atheists grandstand about there atheism being merely the result of a lack of evidence you would agree this is nonsense?