Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crazyfingers · 07-10-2002, 09:37 AM

Perhaps I just haven't seen it but I have not seen any discussion, r.e. the pledge issue, on the right of a non-believer teacher when it comes to being forced by the school administration, to do the "under god" thing in the pledge. It seems to me that it is just as coercive to make a nonbeliever teacher choose between saying the god thing or risk his/her job by refusing it.

It's equally as strong an argument for eliminating "under god" from the pledge and could also touch on the "no religious tests" clause in the constitution.

Alonzo Fyfe · 07-10-2002, 10:12 AM

The law in question requires a patriotic ritual and states that the Pledge of Allegiance would fulfill this requirement. Presumably, other options are available for teachers to use other than the Pledge.

queue · 07-10-2002, 12:18 PM

If I remember correctly, the state law states that a patriotic ritual is required and that the Pledge of Allegiance would fulfill this requirement. It is up to the school districts to determine how they would handle this. In the school district where Newdow's daughter goes (went?) to school, they decided to require the pledge. The teachers did not have the option to determine the patriotic ritual since it was required by the school district.

The teachers (or school administration) can determine the patriotic ritual in school districts that are covered by this type of law but do not set the type of ritual to be performed by the schools within their disticts.

<Looks around for any lawyers to verify or refute what I just posted.>

chiron64 · 07-10-2002, 11:07 PM

That question crossed my mind as a public school teacher who doesn't say the pledge. The <a href="http://www.aclu.org/news/w092997c.html" target="_blank">ACLU</a> has an article about a teacher in Pennsylvania who refused to say the pledge.

Quote:

However, [ACLU lawyer] Presser added, the rights of teachers regarding the pledge are "not nearly as completely developed. He said no case involving teachers has reached the U.S. Supreme Court, although lower courts in states such as New York and Connecticut have held that teachers may not be forced to recite the pledge.

(edited to add): I remember reading somewhere (might have been the same case) that a school district tried to enforce mandatory teacher recitation of the pledge under the idea that a teacher has the obligation to instill a sense of patriotism in students.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: chiron64 ]</p>

GaryP · 07-11-2002, 08:25 AM

I got this reply from a lawyer at Americans United concerning teacher participation;

Gary,
In a case called West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette,
319
U.S. 624 (1943), the United States Supreme Court held that the
government
cannot compel a student to say the Pledge of Allegiance or to salute
the
flag. Although the case was brought by parents who objected to their
children being required to say the Pledge, the same principle would
protect
your rights too.

07-10-2002, 09:37 AM	#1
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	Rights of teachers r.e. the pledge Perhaps I just haven't seen it but I have not seen any discussion, r.e. the pledge issue, on the right of a non-believer teacher when it comes to being forced by the school administration, to do the "under god" thing in the pledge. It seems to me that it is just as coercive to make a nonbeliever teacher choose between saying the god thing or risk his/her job by refusing it. It's equally as strong an argument for eliminating "under god" from the pledge and could also touch on the "no religious tests" clause in the constitution.

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07-10-2002, 10:12 AM	#2
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	The law in question requires a patriotic ritual and states that the Pledge of Allegiance would fulfill this requirement. Presumably, other options are available for teachers to use other than the Pledge.

07-10-2002, 12:18 PM	#3
queue Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 368	If I remember correctly, the state law states that a patriotic ritual is required and that the Pledge of Allegiance would fulfill this requirement. It is up to the school districts to determine how they would handle this. In the school district where Newdow's daughter goes (went?) to school, they decided to require the pledge. The teachers did not have the option to determine the patriotic ritual since it was required by the school district. The teachers (or school administration) can determine the patriotic ritual in school districts that are covered by this type of law but do not set the type of ritual to be performed by the schools within their disticts. <Looks around for any lawyers to verify or refute what I just posted.>

07-11-2002, 08:25 AM	#5
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	I got this reply from a lawyer at Americans United concerning teacher participation; Gary, In a case called West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), the United States Supreme Court held that the government cannot compel a student to say the Pledge of Allegiance or to salute the flag. Although the case was brought by parents who objected to their children being required to say the Pledge, the same principle would protect your rights too.

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