HomoSapien

I am now speaking to those who believe that jesus may never have existed. What I am looking for is some brief proofs or at least arguments in this area. Let me say as a disclaimer that I do believe that the young rabbbi from Palestine did walk the Earth preaching love, forgiveness, and peace.

but I am desireous to hear the con argument.

Ogotay

This is probably the only religious question where I have no idea what to answer..

Therefore I desire to hear arguments myself.

*sits down and waits for a wise atheist to walk into the room.*

Roland

I'm with Doherty on this one. The almost total abscense of biographical details and direct quotes in the 22 epistles of the NT indicate a suspicious lack of knowledge regarding the Jesus of the gospels.

And it isn't just the canonical books. Almost all the Christian texts up to about the year 150 A.D. seem strangely devoid of such details. Then suddenly, in the middle of the second century, the floodgates open and people can't stop writing about this guy known as Jesus - and they haven't stopped talking since.

Here's a great chart that illustrates my point:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...ity/Table.html

It shows when each aspect of the gospel story first show up in the non-gospel record.

Amos

If Jesus existed as a person in history he could not have existed in the myth and it would be impossible for me to "pick up my cross and follow him." This alone means that we should not worship him but become a Jesuit ourselves and "drink of the cup he drank," etc.

Vinnie

James The Brother of a Non-historical Person

Vinnie

GreggLD1

I used to be a historicist like you, before being pretty much convinced by the mythicist case presented by Earl Doherty on his Website and book, "The Jesus Puzzle." You can link to it through www.jesuspuzzle.org.

Doherty's case is not based so much on "proofs" as it is on powerful circumstantial evidence. For example:

Greek philosophers posited the Logos or the Christ, an emanation of God, and that some of them connected the Logos with personified Wisdom from the Jewish scriptures.

Greek philosophers further imagined a multi-layered heaven, with God, pure and untouchable, occupying the highest heaven. As one descended through the "layers" of heaven, things became progressively more "earth-like." The sublunar heavenly realm was the most earthlike of all, and was ruled by demon spirits that harrassed and tormented humanity. In addition, people, important places (like the Temple), and processes (like the sacrifices in the temple) had "perfect" spiritual counterparts in the heavenly realms. Spiritual things were real and permanent, earthly things were shadows, transient.

"Dying/rising" savior god cults were extremely popular in the Roman Empire around the time Christianity was developing. These cults all worshipped divine entities that had undergone a redemptive sacrifice and resurrection (a very ancient motif), either in the primordial past or in a spiritual dimension. Several of these cults were in the practice of eating a sacred meal similar to the Eucharist.

Many Jews and Greeks were in the habit of searching the Jewish scriptures for "messages" from God, or re-interpreting the scriptures via the practice of "midrash."

The epistles, most of which, according to the majority of scholars, were composed before the Gospels and Acts, are remarkably silent on any mention of a historical Jesus. Actually, they talk about Jesus in ways that would have been familiar to a mystery cultist or a Greek philosopher. There are a few verses that at first glance seem to point to a historical figure and historical events, but actually, there's no reason to think they do. For example, Paul speaks of Jesus "breaking bread" on "the night he was delivered up," but such things could take place in the sublunar heavenly realm just as easily as on Earth.

Further, many of the silences are "positive," in that the epistle writers seem to leave no place whatsoever for a historical Jesus ad his ministry of teaching and healing. For example, Paul says that the Gospel, the good news of Christ, is "now" being revealed to the world through himself (Paul) and apostles like him--men whose eyes had been opened to the "mystery" of Christ, of his secret sacrifice and ascension in the sublunar realm, that had long been hidden within the Jewish scriptures. There is no mention of the Gospel first being revealed by Jesus the Christ himself in an earthly ministry. The revelation is from God through the Scriptures, to the apostles, to the world. Paul himself claims to have received his gospel "from no man."

When the epistle writers want to talk about Jesus' suffering, crucifixion, and resurrection, they quote the Scriptures instead of referencing any oral traditions. They write not as if these scriptures are prophecies of recent historical events, but as if these scriptures are accounts of the events themselves.

Basically, what Doherty suggests the early Jewish Christians believed is this: The Logos, or Christ (Jesus Christ means "Annointed Savior"), which they connected with personified Wisdom (and later with the Messiah and the Son of Man), had descended to the lowest level of heaven, the sublunar realm, where he took on the likeness of flesh and was put to death (by hanging on a tree) by the demon rulers of that dimension, who did not know who he was. In returning to life, he broke the power of the demon spirits and "put them under his feet." Those who believed in Jesus could "die" with him and be "resurrected" with him (standard mystery cult belief).

So what about those Gospels and all those sayings of Jesus? Aren't these based on oral traditions of an earthly ministry? Well, no---but that's a bit too involved to get into right now. I'd suggest checking out Doherty's website.

Cheers,

Gregg

Toto

There are no "proofs". There are not enough surviving historical records to prove the issue one way or another. You can only try to figure out a theory that fits the few facts that we have.

Read Doherty's work here: www.jesuspuzzle.com

The Internet Infidels Library has a page of links on the historical Jesus, from various points of view.

Peter Kirby has a summary page of Theories of the Historical Jesus.

There is also a polemical anti-Christian website Jesus Never Existed , which takes a fairly extreme view.

Peter Kirby has started a website www.didjesusexist.com to air both sides of the issue. He has some very interesting articles there which will expand your perspective, whatever you believe.

Roland

As late as about 160 A.D., Tatian, in his Apology, makes the following statement to Greek readers:

"We are not fools, men of Greece, when we declare that God has been born in the form of a man...Compare your own stories with our narratives...Take a look at your own records and accept us merely on the grounds that we too tell stories."

Does Tatian try to make the case that his guy is, in any substantial way, different from their guys? Nope, he just leaves Jesus out there hanging with the likes of Hercules and others of his ilk.

As to where the story of Jesus itself comes from, it seems that most of it sprang directly from the writer of Mark, perhaps based on a real person, but most likely not.

Roland

Well written post, GreggLD1!

Volker.Doormann

I think it is meaningless whether there was a historical Jesus or not. A non existing Jesus makes the teachings in the gospels not untrue. If one is speaking the truth - in math or spirituality - the truth depends not on a person, but on knowledge and recognition. It is also not important to accept all that Hollywood gospel scenario with supernatural claims to understand the meaning and sense of each argued parable saying of him separately.

What is fact is, that there are real written teachings in form of gospels. It is not important, which person has spoken the teachings; it is important to understand the meaning of the teachings. He who looks for persons takes the person more important than that, what is said and is celebrating a personality cult, which has no spiritual relevance.

If one is searching for Jesus and his teachings, he is confronted with gospel sayings in that Jesus claims that no one can follow him, if he does not hate his Father and his Mother. He is confronted with sayings, in that he teaches, that some special actions will not forgive and he is confronted with a statement, that he, Jesus has said, that he was not coming to this world to bring peace.

This teachings are argued by Jesus and are reported from the gospels.

I have a great respect to the teaching of that Jesus, and it is said that Jesus has teached his secrets only to some strange people who could slightly follow him with his spiritual parables.

If one is a fan of the person and ignores or rejects his core teachings can hardly be called a follower of the teaching of Jesus.

Volker