Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Perchance · 09-07-2002, 09:16 PM

Hi K,

Thanks for the reply. I've never been a theist that I remember (some vague gestures in childhood that didn't really take and that my parents never really pursued), so I suppose I can't get past the idea that "God has to exist before any doctrines or faith or ideas about it make sense, and he/it/she/they has/have to be proven to exist." So to me it doesn't seem as if the people writing this kind of crap have the proof they would need to even start thinking this way.

I get too distracted by my own questions about the roots, I think, and don't deal with what's right in front of me sometimes

.

-Perchance.

Grumpy · 09-08-2002, 10:31 AM

Where was God? He was hiding behind the couch while a <a href="http://www.snopes2.com/glurge/girl.htm" target="_blank">little girl</a>'s parents were killed.

Seriously, I saw an informercial/televangelist on TV this morning for <a href="http://www.theevidence.org/episodes/episode8.php" target="_blank">TheEvidence.Org</a> that tried to answer this question, re 9/11. The approach was mainly wishy-washy, focusing mostly on trauma recovery before even mentioning God. At that point, what I heard was A)God was present in the aftermath, and B) God doesn't interfere with "this" world. Except in the aftermath of disasters, apparently -- disasters God is powerless to stop. Or doesn't want to; they didn't explain.

Incidentally, TheEvidence.Org is, perhaps not surprisingly, light on actual evidence. Mostly just people who say they felt God was with them after a personal tragedy. Oh, and the plane crash in the "Tauketnum" mountains was actually in the Talkeetna mountains, but that's probably just a transcription error. And were they sightseeing, as TheEvidence.Org suggests, or returning from a <a href="http://www.palmersdachurch.org/Memorial4.htm" target="_blank">missionary trip</a>, as a Seventh-Day Adventist memorial describes it?

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 09-08-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Sure. God can always choose to step in and intervene in the affairs of men on this planet. Sometimes He chooses not to. After all, He gave mankind liberty to choose for good or for evil. He gave us a free will.(italics added)

-----------------------------

Quote:

But a better question would be, How many times has God prevented tragedies such as 09/11 or greater from occurring to this Nation that we don't even know about and won't know about this side of Heaven?

Quote:

He gave Todd Beamer and the others on Flight 93 the courage to make a difference and be heros when they knew they would die and they changed the course of that jetliner.(italics added)

Quote:

He prevented the explosion from destroying all the escape routes and stairs so people could evacuate.

Quote:

He gave an added courage to the brave First Responders who went about their business trying to save lives facing their duties with bravery.

---------

Did I miss something? If God gave us free will, why did he step in all those times? If we do have free will, what is he doing influencing plane passengers and rescue workers?

Maybe I am missing something, but it certainly seems to me that there are blatant inconsistencies in this fine work of godspam.

-Nick

Grumpy · 09-08-2002, 10:42 AM

I can't resist posting a bit more of "The Evidence." This is from the episode "Searching for God."

Quote:

...for atheist Ralph Muncaster, the fun was about to end. While on a business trip, Ralph met with a supplier who gave him a challenge that changed his life.
Ralph Muncaster: And the supplier happened to be a "Jesus freak", what I would call it back then. He started talking about Jesus and I started playing my game. Well, this person didn't back away. He challenged me. He said: "If you spent as much time researching the Bible and Jesus Christ, you will find out that everything in the Bible is true." And I started laughing at him and I said: "No way." But we talked for a few more minutes. And I said: "If you just give me a couple of weeks, I will come back with some information that will so overwhelm you that you will forget this thing about Jesus and the Bible." And what that did was lead me into a research program, an intensive research program, that changed my life forever.
<snip>
I realized there was a vast number of prophecies embedded in the Bible. I also found out the Bible said to test everything. I also found out that the Bible said to use prophecy as a test. And when I started looking at these prophecies, I counted 668 provable, historical prophecies. When I went through the statistics of these being possible, I realized that they were absolutely impossible without a God of the universe inspiring this book.

What are those 668 amazing prophecies with the power to turn the skeptic into a believer? You won't find them on TheEvidence.Org! Just take Ralph's word for it -- they're in there!

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 09-08-2002, 10:54 AM

Quote:

He said: "If you spent as much time researching the Bible and Jesus Christ, you will find out that everything in the Bible is true."

Ahh, I see. So, things like the great flood, and pi being 3 are true as well? Hmmm. I suppose that means all the atrocities in the OT are true as well. Guess if it's really true I need to start packing a speedo and some ice water.

Quote:

I realized there was a vast number of prophecies embedded in the Bible.

Oddly enough, a Muslim said roughly the same thing about the Qu'ran.

Quote:

When I went through the statistics of these being possible, I realized that they were absolutely impossible without a God of the universe inspiring this book.

Surpringly, the Muslim said roughly the same thing with regards to Islamic prophecies. Hmm...

Quote:

And when I started looking at these prophecies, I counted 668 provable, historical prophecies.

And these prophecies are......

-Nick <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Godless Dave · 09-09-2002, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Where was God? He prevented the explosion from destroying all the escape routes and stairs so people could evacuate.

But he couldn't prevent the explosion from happening in the first place?

Shadowy Man · 09-09-2002, 11:02 AM

Well, if God and Allah are the same god, as those who say that the words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance goes for *all* religions would have you believe, then God must also have been there on September 11th in the cockpit of the airliners with the terrorists, ensuring that they hit their mark.

Shake · 09-09-2002, 12:00 PM

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where was God? The fact the buildings stayed up as long as they did gives a tribute to the Hand of God. Why didn't they just crumble on impact? Could there have been unseen forces holding them up so many more people could escape?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was the Towers architecture and design that held them up for that long. They only collapsed when the trusses connecting the exterior skeleton with the interior supports broke, which resulted in the floors pancaking on top of each other.

Exactly, BigBlue2! I saw the History Channel's presentation that had been filmed prior to 9/11, where they say that the WTC had been designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707! I believe, if memory serves, that the 707 was one of the largest aircraft at the time the WTC was built. Of course, no one ever expected for an aircraft to be intentionally flown into the buildings (at full speed, with full fuel).

Rimstalker, that pic is priceless!

Vesica · 09-09-2002, 12:20 PM

In response to the original post:

Yes, that makes me a little ill too but I refuse to sit around questioning the ways people have found to comfort themselves and make thier world seem comprehensible again.

I know not all of us need any such stories to feel okay but hey....My attitude runs towards 'If it helps you face the day...'.

I think there are few that would say (in public where they could be beaten by their fellow peoples) that the events of Septemeber 11th are consistent with what they beleive about human nature and man's inhumanity to man....

ImGod · 09-09-2002, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Someone gave an order to evacuate, but to this day, the History Channel reported no one knows who gave that order. Was it God? Did He use some unknown person to give that order? Did He give the order Himself?

Utter BS. A plane flies into your building and you need an order to evacuate. Are they really so stupid that they can't believe people may have evacuated because they realized it was a good idea to get out?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-07-2002, 09:16 PM	#11
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	Hi K, Thanks for the reply. I've never been a theist that I remember (some vague gestures in childhood that didn't really take and that my parents never really pursued), so I suppose I can't get past the idea that "God has to exist before any doctrines or faith or ideas about it make sense, and he/it/she/they has/have to be proven to exist." So to me it doesn't seem as if the people writing this kind of crap have the proof they would need to even start thinking this way. I get too distracted by my own questions about the roots, I think, and don't deal with what's right in front of me sometimes . -Perchance.

09-08-2002, 10:31 AM	#12
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Where was God? He was hiding behind the couch while a <a href="http://www.snopes2.com/glurge/girl.htm" target="_blank">little girl</a>'s parents were killed. Seriously, I saw an informercial/televangelist on TV this morning for <a href="http://www.theevidence.org/episodes/episode8.php" target="_blank">TheEvidence.Org</a> that tried to answer this question, re 9/11. The approach was mainly wishy-washy, focusing mostly on trauma recovery before even mentioning God. At that point, what I heard was A)God was present in the aftermath, and B) God doesn't interfere with "this" world. Except in the aftermath of disasters, apparently -- disasters God is powerless to stop. Or doesn't want to; they didn't explain. Incidentally, TheEvidence.Org is, perhaps not surprisingly, light on actual evidence. Mostly just people who say they felt God was with them after a personal tragedy. Oh, and the plane crash in the "Tauketnum" mountains was actually in the Talkeetna mountains, but that's probably just a transcription error. And were they sightseeing, as TheEvidence.Org suggests, or returning from a <a href="http://www.palmersdachurch.org/Memorial4.htm" target="_blank">missionary trip</a>, as a Seventh-Day Adventist memorial describes it?

09-09-2002, 11:02 AM	#17
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	Well, if God and Allah are the same god, as those who say that the words "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance goes for all religions would have you believe, then God must also have been there on September 11th in the cockpit of the airliners with the terrorists, ensuring that they hit their mark.

09-09-2002, 12:20 PM	#19
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	In response to the original post: Yes, that makes me a little ill too but I refuse to sit around questioning the ways people have found to comfort themselves and make thier world seem comprehensible again. I know not all of us need any such stories to feel okay but hey....My attitude runs towards 'If it helps you face the day...'. I think there are few that would say (in public where they could be beaten by their fellow peoples) that the events of Septemeber 11th are consistent with what they beleive about human nature and man's inhumanity to man....

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.