ax

A xain friend sent me this. I've tried to show him my viewsm but he keeps defending god etc. Well, here's an email I got from him. I'm not entirely sure to as how and what I'll respond (with). Anyway:
I had an interesting thought about the way God is described, both by Christians and by God himself.
I know that some people say he's arrogant, eg,
* give me the propper respect and awe or you'll pay the consequences
* follow me or you'll be thrown into hell.
* I am the only way for you to have life and have it to the full.

And then I thought of a notion. Suppose the "Sun" turned out to be some kind of strange alien with great intelligence etc.
And Mr Sun was just visiting here for a few million years, but he was planning on returning back to his home some day soon. I thought about the concept of how 'Stating scientific fact' could be mistaken for arrogance etc. What would the Sun tell us if he liked us.
* give me the propper respect and awe or you'll pay the consequences (looking at the sun will send you blind)
* follow me or you'll be thrown into hell. (If the Sun loved us, he'd know that once he buggered off, there is now way life could exist without him, it is kind of like an ultimatum, but we just don't have a choice. How would you describe the Earth if the Sun went away? I'd call it Hell. Our only chance for life is for us to go where he goes)
* I am the only way for you to have life and have it to the full. (same as above)

When I thought about it this way - all of my arrogant arguements didn't hold credibility.

Just think about this concept for a while - Literally - How would you behave or react if the Sun really was a person, and wasn't planning on hanging around. Would you take a chance on your own - or would you admit the dependence that is a scientific constant.

What do you reckon?

diana

Good morning, ax.

Since this appears to be a request for some sort of agreeable definition of God, I'll leave it for the time being.

I admit I don't follow your friend's line of reasoning.

d

Ice

Basically, he's saying "Mr Sun" has a right to be arrogant, but is really not being arrogant, but truthful about the fact that life on Earth depends on him. However, Mr Sun did not create the Earth nor its inhabitants, so he has no pregorative to stay. God created Earth and humans - he also has a right to be arrogant, and truthful about the fact that we depend on him (assuming the Christian's argument).

That's what I get anyway.

Psycho Economist

Item one is not a valid inference. Despite the fact that not making eye contact is a submissive gesture, we don't look away from the sun because we submit to it... retina-searing radiant energy is an intrinsic property of thermonuclear fusion, and he hasn't implied that it's not.

Secondly, I'd call the Earth without the Sun a frozen deathtrap wandering in space, not a transcendent realm of eternal torture. Death is what naturally happens when you asphyxiate or succumb to hypothermia. Additionally, the Sun has not said he'll bring us back to life and torture us forever.

As for two and three together: Ice is (if I understand him correctly) dead on. The Sun didn't make life here and has never before pretended to be invested in our affairs. As tragic as it would be for the Sun to leave, he wasn't responsible for our being here.

Mmm... sun worship. Let's go play some volley-baske-soccer-ball. Loser gets his heart ripped out.

Bumble Bee Tuna

Give the sun the property that it loves us, and then the concept of leaving and letting us die in its cold absence is abhorrent. Never mind that there would be no way to 'follow the sun' if it were to leave. This is a terrible, terrible analogy. The sun also did not create us. Terrible analogy.

-B

Darkblade

Your friend’s argument doesn’t hold water because the sun is not defined as being omnipotent (much less omniscient and omnibenevolent to boot!) as his god-concept is. Therefore his god can not be expected to fail like the sun "would". Hell and any imperfection are both unnecessary for an omnipotent being, therefore his god must be evil or ridiculously apathetic to us (created the universe at random, even knowing it would include hell and imperfection).

betzerdg

It's fairly obvious that no one here really understands allegorical or symbolic comparisions.

what is being said is this:

Our understanding of G-d is so much less that who G-d really is that we compare HIM to OURSELVES...and thus we think it arrogant to want to be worshipped and obeyed.

BUT....if we saw G-d as who HE is....with the SUN being representative of HIS AWESOMENESS...then we would understand that HIS POSITION alone would DEMAND that we give HIM complete and total alligence.

Which is quite right.

Shalom.

BetzEr

Jinto

Good evening betzerdg.

First of all please note that it is not nessecary to censor the word God here, and most of us find it quite annoying.

Now, onto your argument:

If someone wants to make an argument from analogy, then one must first be sure that analogy is valid.

First of all, the sun did not create us, and therefore has no moral imperative to take care of us. Your God, however, is claiming that He did.

Second, there is a difference between not allowing someone to view you directly, and warning them that if they do so the amount of radiation you are emitting may harm their eyes. Please note that it is possible to directly observe the sun if an adequate solar filter is used. Finally, please note that it is beyond the sun's ability to control its radiation output. Now if God has difficulty or it is beyond his ability to manifest himself, then he may be excused for not doing so. However, his own book tells us that He has manifested himself before others many times, and being the almighty, there really should be nothing that is impossible or difficult for him. As such, the analogy is not applicable.

Third, Earth without the sun would not be analogous to hell. For one thing, it is the natural condition without the sun's presence, whereas if theistic arguments are to be believed, the natural condition without God would be nonexistence. To deliberately keep someone alive for the purpose of torturing them eternally is infinitely cruel. Also, note that humans COULD actually survive in small numbers without the sun, by staying indoors and using artificial elerctrical power to keep buildings warm, as well as full-spectrum light bulbs to grow the nessecary food supply. It wouldn't be pretty, but humans wouldn't be without hope.

Fourth, and now attacking your own assertations rather than the analogy you are defending, is that NO being is worthy of worship just because they are awesome. Suppose I am Michael Jordan, and I tell you that you should worship and serve me because I am such an awesome basketball player. Clearly, it is not enough just to be awesome: to demand respect one must also give it. The biblical God does not.

Finally, just in case anyone has gotten confused, the Sun is not an alien entity, it's just a big hot ball of plasma. Similarly, God is not an omnipotent being, he's just a fairy tale, and this whole discussion is just a big hypothetical situation.

betzerdg

So you're the spokes person for the entire web here, hummm....sorry that you ALL find G-d so annoying...

But that is typical of the "fundamental atheists" approach to anything new or different....sorry about your intolerance (whew, i though the baptist fundmentalists were nitpicky!)

Anyway.....I won't go into your illogical and somewhat ridiculous argument about the SUN thing.....sorry about your bad luck!

Let me say this for clarification.....G-d's first creation was HIMSELF in time and space. It is here that YESHUA...the Metatron, the MEMRA was created (JESUS). HE is the "adom Kadmon" the blueprint for all of creation (molecular structure). When G-d is anthromorphised in the scripture it is reference to Yeshua...who is the "exact representation of the invisible G-d" It is YEshua that walked and talked with the prophets. ( G-d in physical form.)

AS for keeping someone alive for the purpose of torture.
Where did you get that idea? It isn't scriptural.

Scripture says this: WE are eternal beings. We live forever. That is how we were created. G-d's plan is for us to spend eternity with HIM. IF we choose not to....well....we will of necessity spend eternity AWAY from HIM>...which, is basically your HELL place. Of course, HELL was originally created for HaSatan and HIS followers...not for man. But you can go there is you like. It's a choice.

Shalom,

BEtzer

Darkblade

I'll second Jinto that "G-d" is annoying. Please don't be hostile to Jinto; he was informing you that you have no need to type "G-d" when you mean "God". And he didn't say "ALL".