MrDarwin

But isn't this exactly what you're doing when you repent during your lifetime? Just what is it about your repentance that makes it sincere?

Magus, you have not answered my question, you have only restated the problem. Why can one change one's beliefs before death, but not after? Why can one repent before death, but not after? Do I have free will after I die, or not? Because inherent in free will is the ability to choose, and one of the possible choices is to sincerely repent. Do you believe that God takes away our free will, and thus our ability to choose to repent, when we die?

Ab_Normal

I can't speak for all atheists, but I feel pretty secure in stating, for the nth time, that most atheists don't hate God. We also don't hate Vishnu, Odin, Zeus, Jupiter or the Tooth Fairy. (Now Santa, I've got some issues with, because he just can't get my Christmas wishes straight. )

We don't believe in the god of the Bible, and the gods of the Rig Veda, and the gods of the Greek myths, and the gods of the Norse Eddas, and the gods of the Roman stories, which is an entirely different thing from hate.

Ojuice5001

Completely the opposite of me. I don't hate Yahweh, but I trust him about as far as my glasses are from my eyes. And the reason for this is that I do believe in the gods of Roman mythology, while Yahweh gets people to think they're not real.

And if I die, and there are no Roman gods welcoming me, I will reconsider my stance of not trusting him.

BTW, I think my "easy to repent in hell" idea is watertight.

Ensign Steve

I have to admit, it is a lot harder to refute the existence of Roman gods than Yaweh. They don't crumble under the PoE argument. They didn't put out an internally-inconsistent document of their lives. I can say that I am a strong atheist about Yaweh, because I have good reason to believe he doesn't exist. But I have to resign myself to being a weak-atheist or agnostic when it comes to the Roman gods, as I don't have any good reason to disbelieve their existence.

Magus55

God is perfect, holy, and righteous. A sin is a severe crime against God. Because you are commiting a crime against a perfect infinite being, the consequences are infinite. For God not to punish would be unjust and unrighteous, and would go against his nature ( which he can't do). The punishment is eternal, because the offense is against an eternal being. Sin is so bad because of who it is offending. You are offending the epitome of holiness, righteousness and perfection, therefore Sin is infintely heinous compared to earthly crimes.

You see it as unfair, but you are basing fairness on a human perspective. God made the laws, and violating them is going against his holiness and must be punished, and since he is eternal - punishment is forever. His idea of fairness isn't always in agreement with yours because you don't see the whole picture and aren't perfect, righteous, and holy.

I don't know how to explain it to you any better. A crime against God doesn't compare to an earthly crime. And our basis of fairness and cruelty are from a human, corrupted perspective. God can do no wrong, whether you think its wrong or not. He made the laws and how they work and he will always carry out the laws and the results for breaking them perfectly. Just because of who He is, sin is an eternal death sentence. God does not send you to Hell because he enjoys it. He HAS to be righteous and punishment for a crime against him is required by his own nature. Since he can't violate his own nature ( or he wouldn't be God) - his righteous judgement must be fulfilled.

Ab_Normal

I added Jupiter to my list just for you, Ojuice.

Ensign Steve

Well, repeatedly asserting it is one way to try. But asserting something repeatedly is not enough to convince me that it is the truth.

Quote:

God is perfect, holy, and righteous. A sin is a severe crime against God. Because you are commiting a crime against a perfect infinite being, the consequences are infinite.

See, this is where you lose me. I don't see how that conclusion follows. To rip off a concept that somebody else presented, if god was orange, are the concequences of commiting a crime against him orange? If god was funny, would the concequences of commiting a crime against him be funny? Using the word "infinite" two times in the same sentence does not make that sentence as obviously true as you seem to think it does.

Quote:

For God not to punish would be unjust and unrighteous, and would go against his nature ( which he can't do). The punishment is eternal, because the offense is against an eternal being.

Still don't follow. What if I said "The punishment is finite, because the offense is carried out by a finite being." Why should I assume your sentence is true and mine is false?

Quote:

Sin is so bad because of who it is offending. You are offending the epitome of holiness and righteousness and perfection, therefore Sin is infintely heinous compared to earthly crimes.

How can I, who am as low as bacteria, possibly offend this eternal being that created me? How can a being that is perfect even be offended by anything, especially little ol' me?

Quote:

You see it as unfair, but you are basing fairness on a human perspective.

I am human. What other perspective can I possibly base it upon?




Still asserting that same claim, without backing it up.

Quote:

I don't know how to explain it to you any better. A crime against God doesn't compare to an earthly crime. And our basis of fairness and cruelty are from a human, corrupted perspective. God can do no wrong, whether you think its wrong or not. He made the laws and how they work and he will always carry out the laws and the results for breaking them perfectly. Just because of who He is, sin is an eternal death sentence.

Okay, thanks for that, again. Now, do you think you can try to actually answer any of the questions put forth in this response, or are you just going to say the same stuff yet again?

Jen

Ojuice5001

Cool.

Magus55

I did answer the questions the best way possible. That is the answer to the question, you just can't get the concept through your head ( hence my attempt with redundancy).

I'm not gonna keep finding new and inventive ways to say the exact same thing i just said in hopes that one day you might actually understand it, although im seriously doubting it because you analyze it with an electron microscope only to find the human mind can't fully comprehend God's ways, only what he tells us. But i guess since you don't believe in what he tells us, you're outta luck.

Tajapooh

I hope everyone on this thread, including Magus, is having fun! Because it doesn't look fun. Basically, the dynamic seems to be that Magus is describing his/her belief system, and everyone else is picking it apart, either for interior consistency or for consistency with empirical evidence.

Perhaps all of we non-theists should reread our Kierkegaard and stop picking apart Magus' beliefs. Presumably, s/he is beleaguered enough without our help. No matter what the details of a theist system are, a person enters into it by making a leap of faith. One cannot argue a person into or out of that leap using reason - they do it because their own experience makes it desirable or even necessary. Once you have made that single leap of belief in the unseen, I think you are freed to believe anything you wish about the attributes of the deity.

My concern is with worldly actions taken by believers in accordance with what their deity 'wants' of them. More plainly, I could care less if Magus's chosen God condemns anyone to hell everlasting after death for sneezing during service. However, I care a great deal if Magus feels his/her God has 'told' believers to punish unbelievers in this life, or even to treat them as if they were worth less than believers.

Magus, I grant you that, within your belief system, I am a horrendous sinner. Is vengeance the Lord's or is it yours?