Joe V.

Jeeze, Whispers, are you now admitting to being so selfish and shallow that the only fate you're concerned with is your own? And Christians wonder why they're so derided by atheists...

Carl Sagan once said, "We are a way for the universe to know itself." I believe in these words, and as such, I consider it a privledge to be alive and to experience the universe, it's many wonders and many secrets. Since my worldview has changed, I want to study all those wonders and explore all those secrets. I have been reading books on biology and astronomy and history to live that worldview, to know myself and my place in the universe. There's no way we'll be able to study all of the many secrets while I'm alive, because to do so will mean we'll eventually have to wander away from our home planet and explore all that the universe has to offer.

What a joy that would be to me, to be able to hop from star to star, galaxy to galaxy, exploring one wonder after the next. Is there anything that could compare to the treasure trove of worlds that are out there, just waiting to be explored? But, it is unrealistic of me to expect that I'll live long enough to see that come to reality, but it is not so unrealistic to expect our descendants to be able to. If there's anything we can do now to bring that goal one step closer, I believe it is worth doing it.

In the next few years, space tourism will very likely be a reality. To realize that in my lifetime, I'll be able to float out there in the depths of space, to walk amongst the stars, to do it not just for me, but for all the people in our past who looked up at the stars and wondered what's out there, to be able to live their dream, and to know that our descendants will be able to live out my dreams... I simply cannot fathom how our lives would be so worthless without a god.

- Joe

TomboyMom

That's right! We would like some proof or at least some evidence, before believing something. A shred. A dot. An iota. Or as we say in the law, a peppercorn of evidence. By the way, you opened the thread by asserting that an alleged but unverified "fact" (belief in god helps people overcome addiction) tends to prove that god exists. You brought up the issue of proof, and I just pointed out that it may not be a fact, and if it is, may not prove what YOU contend. You therefore accused me of being hung up on proof.

To my way of thinking, this is another way of saying that there is no proof that god exists. So maybe you should stop looking for it. You believe that god exists despite there being no evidence for that. I like to see a little evidence before believing something.

Rene

Whispers

Okay then evidence and proof....

I understand and believe that there is evidence and this can be discussed if you wish in a separate thread. But you must understand that I cannot and will not be able to prove the existence of a creator to you. You say that you want at least one jot of evidence that there is such a being. I say that there is a reasonable amount of evidence for this very thing. The burden of proof is with me entirely, however, unless you can disprove God's existence, then you can only say I don’t know...surely?

I personally don’t know whether fairies exist or not. I suspect they don’t, but am open to the possibility. I cannot say they don’t exist, because I have no way of backing up my statement. I can claim that God exists and I have information and feelings which confirm this to me. If I type them all out and list them alphabetically, will you believe then? Will that make the change in your heart? Of course it will not and that is why I am hesitant to do so......but I will if I feel it will lead to genuine and open discussion, which is not abusive and inflammatory. I am a bit wary, because I am on an atheist forum and there is a lot of pent-up aggression under the surface of some of the regular attendees of this site. I don’t blame them to be honest.....those God believers that preach when it has not been asked for, and make judgements about others, are not practicing what I understand that Christ taught..and they make people angry and alienate them....

DMB

Whispers: I know it's hard for you because most of us posting in this thread are infidels and you are trying to cope with what's slung at you by all of us, but I would appreciate answers to my previous post. You did mention that you had tried buddhism, but have not explained why you moved from that to what appears to be a form of xianity. You assume that we disbelieve in just your god, when most of us disbelieve in all gods. So why pick yours?

Knowing the character of my mother, I think it very unlikely that she was unfaithful to my father. But I don't know and I don't particularly care. My "father" has been dead for 14 years. These people, whatever their relationship to me, brought me up and I felt a sense of obligation to them which is still operative in my relationship with my "mother".

When I go to a restaurant I don't have all that much trust in the hygiene of the cooking. I have several times suffered food poisoning as a result of eating out and so have many people I know. I accept it as a hazard.

When I drive across a green light, I always look both ways first. I did once narrowly avoid a collision with a drunk who was coming through on the red at high speed.

I love my husband, but we are often apart, and for all I know he could be sleeping with a whole harem. It would be very destructive of our relationship if I were constantly spying on him or quizzing him. So I make the choice not to pry.

So you see, in the examples you give, I am not particularly trusting and I certainly don't have a lot of faith in the infallibility or reliability of my fellow humans.

But the modified kind of trust you are talking about in everyday life is based on knowledge of people. We know what people are like, and if we are competent adults we ought to know what the risks are. None of this seems to me to have anything to do with the mental state of religious faith. Believers frequently urge unbelievers to have faith, but how can we have faith in something we find inherently unlikely?

There are all sorts of things I don't have faith in:

• not just your god, but all gods
• fairies, elves, leprechauns, mermaids, pixies
• seven-league boots, talking animals, magic
• aliens who keep visiting earth in flying saucers and conducting sexual experiments on abducted people when they're not constructing corn-circles
• most forms of "alternative" medicine
• spiritualism with all the table-rapping, mediums, spirit guides, automatic writing
• the wisdom of the East
• complete the list for yourself

I don't claim to be infallible. I have sometimes been sceptical about something that has subsequently been proved true and I have certainly been taken in by fraudulent claims. I do, however, aspire to rationality (I know in practice that none of us is rational all or even most of the time). You yourself wrote:
If I'm going to stop being anaytical and start believing things on poor evidence, why out of all the bullshit that you admit is flying around, should I choose your particular god?

You suggest that if a god suddenly made an extremely public appearance and started doing convincing miracles that some of us would still be disbelieving. Well, if someone who looked like an ordinary human being appeared doing what might be conjuring tricks, that's probably true. But if a god appeared simultaneously and openly to everyone in the world and was perceived by everyone to be speaking their own language, how would we not believe?

I just don't think it's at all likely to happen. You don't like it when we look at the existing evidence and think it inadequate. Instead you want us to have faith. But there are really too many gods for us even to consider having faith in them all, so I come back to the question: what's so special about yours?

Stephen T-B

Do you feel you are banging your head up against a brick wall, Whispers?
I can tell, it’s what I think I’m doing.
I can also tell you that it is not a new experience because nearly all my family are Believers, indeed my very -elderly uncle is a Franciscan Friar.
My lack of belief troubles him deeply, for not only is he my uncle but also my God Father, and he therefore has a sense of responsibility for my immortal soul.
Now, what I have experienced in my exchanges with him is his inability to understand that lack of belief in gods is as unremarkable as sneezing. You don’t have to work at it. It just happens.
Actually, it’s more effortless than trying to believe in one.
He seems to think (as I am sure you do) that it is an unnatural aberration which is caused by Sin. Or perhaps he thinks I’ve been suckered in by Satan or his demons. Whatever the case, he is convinced something has gone terribly wrong which I have the power to put right - if only he can persuade me to try.
And isn’t that why you are here: to persuade us to try to believe, as you do?
Dear sweet Uncle cannot grasp the fact that I never CHOSE not to believe; that belief slips away because it’s not needed.
Like many here, I was brought up in a Christian family and believed what I was told. Well, why not? I was a child and the people who told me there’s a god were my parents and their friends - all of them grown-ups and presumably reliable. But when I asked god to direct me in an unambiguous, unmistakable, unequivocal manner - as I had been brought up to believe he would do - I remained totally un-enlightened.
Now, if I’d been desperate to believe there was a god, I’d have made excuses for this lack of communication; or I’d have made spurious deductions, like “Obviously I obeyed God’s will (even if I didn’t know it) when I did what I did after asking for His guidance, or He’d have let me know it.”
Fact is, I didn’t need to go in for that kind of self-deception. Fact is, being liberated from the god thing made me very happy.
I keep coming back to this - and Believers hate it – belief in gods springs from a psychological need. It satisfies that need so completely that Believers cannot conceive of anyone else not wanting to share that experience.
We become atheists because our psychological needs lie elsewhere.
Don’t let it worry you; just accept it, if you can, to be the case.

Stephen T-B

(OK... you can't accept it.
If you did, it'd mean accepting that god is something other than what you believe it to be.)

Hawkingfan

I have been emotionally let down by a loved one before. But my heart did nothing more than beat faster. Probably due to adrenaline ("fight or flight"). As far as the emotional pain resulting in physical pain, I would see a doctor about that. Especially if you feel that your chest will explode. I think that mental stress can transmit to physical stress because that is the nature of stress. Your heart rate may increase, temperature increase, adrenaline increases, sweat, shaking, etc. You may even go into shock, which can be induced solely by the person going into shock. Anyway, I don't see how that proves that thoughts and emotions come from the heart. And I don't see anything supernatural about it. It may just be psychosomatic. Your bodily functions, emotions, and thoughts come from your brain, however. The only pain I feel under extreme emotional stress is an occasional stomach pain. But it doesn't feel like exploding. Just acidic. Maybe that's what your feeling.

I draw the line at what is and what isn't extraoridinary when there is something that someone claims that contradicts what I know to be true in everyday reality. I accept on trust and "faith" things that do not contradict everyday realities.

Hawkingfan

But using Occam's razor, you would know that it is unreasonable to suggest that they have any sort of relation to how the universe works.
But you can say it is unreasonable to believe in them if they are not apart of reality and cannot be seen, heard, etc.
That is known as a confirmation bias. It is also anecdotal evidence, so how can you blame us for calling it unreasonable?

Sometimes I claim that "There is no god", but it is probably better to say "The belief in a god is unreasonable and unnecessary in understanding the nature of the universe. It is more reasonable and realistic to lack a belief in any gods". That is the best way for me to describe my atheism. Can't you admit that it is unreasonable to believe in a god that cannot prove it exists beyond a confirmation bias? You can still believe it, Whispers, but at least admit your belief is unreasonable. I think it is impossible for a god to exist, but if I'm wrong, at least I believed something that was reasonable. I'd be more than happy to take that fact with me "beyond the grave" (which I won't ).

Reldas of Melchezidec

Hello Whispers,

I have followed the thread this far and can see the avenue by which you approach... The Issue has been flirted with and skirted around much, and will be brought closer to home if you would direct insight into answering this repeatedly asked question:

"what distinguishes Your 'God' from the rest"

You have indicated that the entity has direct corellation with a certain character, and subsequently certain behaviors exibited in humans- namely peace, patience, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-controll, faith, and love.... (to elaborate more)

The question calls for evidence that is universal to all humans, not just certain sects. AS long as the argued medium is abstract, ambiguous- far away... distant from infidellish "hearts".... there can be no understanding and the chasm between realities grows.

peace and grace
-reldas

pariah

wtf...your original post says that jesus exists because the followers of jesus find themselves so happy.

the buddist tests, according to YOU, would prove that budda existed, b/c its followers experience so much happiness b/c of it as well.

of COURSE i dont think they prove god exist. they prove that one can convince oneself that what they beleive is true, and then their body reacts accordingly...

i just use the buddists as an example of someone else who has a strong faith and seems to benefit from it...meaning that benefitting from faith is not proof at all of a gods existance.