Christoph

I need you guys to test my logic here:

If you deny the existence of God, there is really no reason to live. There is no purpose. Evolution, if you believe it, does away with any need for purpose. We may invent purpose, but how can that matter? A cosmic accident presumes to give itself purpose? We are an accident. We are here for no reason. We may say we are here for our kids. We may also say the sun is here to warm the earth. Of course that's not why the sun is here. There's no reason for the sun to be here. It's coincidence that it provides a service for us. If we presume to appoint a purpose for ourselves it's a pretty pathetic and useless purpose because there really is no universal goal.
I really can't understand why an atheist can say life has purpose. Please clarify that for me.

Goliath

Cristoph,

You'll find this reply in the "Challenge to Xians" thread. I posted it there before noticing that you had started a new thread, so here the reply is again. My apologies for repeating myself.

Cristoph,

First of all, in case you weren't aware, atheism has absolutely nothing to do with denying gods. An atheist is one who does not believe in any god whatsoever. I cannot deny that which I don't believe exists.


Since I am an atheist and have a plethora of reasons for living, I am a living counterexample to your claim. Therefore you are demonstrably wrong.

Again, I and the people and things I care about give purpose to my life. Again, you are demonstrably wrong.

The answer consists mostly of a word that is in your question: because it's a purpose.

First of all, I make no claim to being a "cosmic accident," and secondly, we not only presume to give ourselves purpose, but we do so.

Why should there be some grandiose, universal purpose of life? Why should it matter to me? What difference would it make in my life?

Absolutely none. I am in no need of a "universal goal." IMO, people who need some kind of "universal goal" and grandiose purpose to get by in life are--in your words--"pretty pathetic."

As I said above, it's unbelievably simple. Ready?

1. Give purpose to your life.

2. Live your life.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Clutch

You might start by explaining exactly what you mean by "purpose". But in any event...
You really just say this about five times, in different ways. How about this? You give no reason to think it's true.

1) There is no reason to believe in a god.
2) I have many purposes (I mean, goals, aims, ends I find meaningful) : some short-term, some longer-term, some life-long.

Show me the contradiction.

(And please, please -- because I can see this coming -- don't just repeat that if there's no absolute, divine, universal purpose, then there's no purpose at all. I deny this, and you must present an argument for it, rather than just rehearsing it. Thank you!)

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Clutch ]</p>

HRG

The purpose we define for ourselves matters to us - sentient, intelligent beings -, and this is quite sufficient.

BTW, why should we accept someone else's ideas about our purpose ?
The difference between the sun and us is that we are sentient beings and thus can define purposes.

Why should this be a presumption ? On the contrary, it is a presumption for someone else to set a purpose for me!
I pity you if you think that you cannot set yourself a personal goal. Who needs an universal goal, anyway ?
Anything a sentient being defines as his purpose is his purpose for life.

HRG.

Detached9

A cosmic accident presumes to give itself purpose?

Let's say the universe has existed ever since time has existed (as the General Theory of Relativity suggests), you are asking why the universe exists at all, since it existed randomly, without cause. Now, say your God existed randomly, without cause, why does God exist at all? What purpose does God serve by existing? Before you answer this, keep in mind that life hasn't been around even since the existence of the planet earth. Life took billions of years to exist even after the planet earth formed.

DarkBronzePlant

For starters, there's not a whole lot of logic in your argument.
I assume this is the theory that you are asserting...
I'm not sure what you mean here. What "need for pupose" does evolution do away with? Your post seems to make it clear that humans need some sort of purpose to live, and if true, I don't see how evolution or anything else would eliminate that. Perhaps you are saying that if evolution is true, then it can be logically demonstrated that there is no god-given purpose to life. I can agree with that.
As we did when we invented god
Whether my purpose for living comes from some god or from somewhere else, it matters not to me. It is a reason for living regardless. Are you actually asserting that if there is no purpose for life that is dictated to you by some god, that you cannot have any reason to live? That's pretty sad...
I don't believe that evolution, or the big bang, or to whatever you are referring, presumes anything.
But that would be untrue if god didn't say so?
It's a little more than a coincidence, but I get your point.
What is, in fact, pathetic IMHO is that you can't find any meaning for your life if it's not handed to you by some sky-fairy.
I am an atheist, and my life has a purpose. Many purposes, in fact. For example, challenging myself to constantly learn new things. Trying to make those around me happy. Passing the knowledge and experience I've gained on to the next generation. I need no diety to tell me this. I also don't need to think that I am living my life as a slave or servant to some god, who will ultimately reward me or punish me depending on how close to his wishes I'd lived my life.

It's amazing to me that you need such a notion in order to feel that you have a fullfilling life. Amazing as it is, though, it further demonstrates why people in general still need to clutch on to this notion of a god watching over us all, and a heaven waiting for us when we die. It is, to paraphrase you, "us inventing purpose."

Mageth

This topic, I believe, stemmed from a conversation in another thread. So here's the history, and my responses of course reply to this thread as well:

Christoph stated:
The thing is that I look at the big picture. I feel that there are too many questions that seem impossible to answer without the supernatural.
...
Purpose (if there's no purpose, there's no purpose. It doesn't matter if we live or die)

I replied:
This argument always floors, and saddens, me. I don't believe in god, and I find ample purpose to live, and definitely feel that it matters, to me and to my friends and family, whether I live or die. I feel sorry for anyone who claim they can find no purpose in life outside a 2000-year-old myth.

Goliath posted his above response, and I added:

Goliath eloquently answered your question. I'll second everything he said. And yes, there really is no "universal goal." We all need to learn that.

I'll add that there is more purpose to this life, IMO, in my life as an Atheist than there was in my former life as a christian. From a xian theological view, this life is only a "warm-up" for an eternal life, and at least according to some one could totally fritter this life away and make a deathbed confession to gain the "universal goal" of eternal life. I've known many xians who expressed a desire to get this life over as quickly as possible so that they can enter the eternal kingdom sooner rather than later ("Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus"). As an atheist I know that this life is all I've got, so I'd better enjoy it while it lasts and make the best of it I can.

Christoph

OK. This is my argument for it.

We have purpose. It had to come from somewhere (everything in our universe does, as far as we know). Did we evolve it? If we did, why? The concept of purpose seems pretty advanced. If it evolved, what concepts did we use as stepping stones to get to "puropose" or a goal or whatever you want to call it?

The answer, of course, is that that something or someone gave us that purpose (you may deny this, but I doubt you have an alternative).

I've had people tell me that survival is the goal. That's the closest thing to a reasonable answer I've heard, but did the survival instinct would have to exist before the organism in order for that to be the answer.

Eudaimonist

Happiness is my purpose and my reward for living life well. I give my life purpose; I don't need anyone else to do this for me.

Detached9

The answer, of course, is that that something or someone gave us that purpose (you may deny this, but I doubt you have an alternative).

What is the purpose of God existing?