Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K,
Uh...???

No one is saying 'IF God exists THEN ones attitude towards God affects ones relationship with God' implies 'God exists'.


The above statement is just a tautology...something that is necessarily true.



But average Christians don't believe comets are spaceships, aliens are coming to get them, suicide is ok or shaving your head, giving all your money away then moving to commune in beverly hills are good ideas.

Moreover...
% of folks in USA who are Christian = 82%
% of folks in USA who are Heavens Gate = 0%


I think your classification of who is 'crazy' may be a bit skewed by your own bias.


Isn't this more likely than 82% of all Americans being crazy?

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Philosoft

Nothing, so long as you realize the first part of your premise assumes a particular god-concept, and it shouldn't be surprising that the theist is "seeking" the god he already believes in.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Asha'man,
What is your personal experience?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Philosoft,
It seems you are trying to make two points here.
A-Having a particular God concept is bad.
B-Being open to the possibility that X exists is equivalent to believing X exists.


It is not clear how you can assert either.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

K

SOMMS:

You never said that it meant that God existed, but you implied several times that it was good reason to seek God with an open heart. Why should we not seek all of the other supernatural claims with an open heart?

If you didn't mean it to imply that it was reason for us to seek God or that it somehow supported the Christian claim that God exists, then what is the use of the statement? It would be like saying "if God exists, then He would exist."

No, but the average Christian does believe that there is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent being who created everything - but was somehow unhappy with that creation. This being supposedly loves us more than we could possibly understand, but will sentence us to an eternity of suffering for simply not believing in him. They also believe that this god had a son who became human through a virgin birth. He then died and rose from the dead so that all that believe in him could live happily ever after with him after they die.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see why this is any more plausible than the Heaven's Gate stuff. I'm being completely honest when I say that. I haven't even touched on the literalist stuff which is really whacked out.

There are quite a few who believe in astrology and that mediums can speak with the dead also. The percentage of people who hold a belief does not make that belief true. Would you accept a similar argument about the percentage of people in India who are Hindu as validating the correctness of Hinduism?

Actually, I think you are the only one who has classified a group as crazy. I don't think the Heaven's Gate people or Christians are crazy. I think both groups allow their religions to be exempt from the critical thinking they may apply to the rest of their lives.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: K ]</p>

Philosoft

I judge this to be generally true, but it is not related to my point, and I have gone to great lengths to avoid making this judgement. Obviously not great enough lengths. What I have attempted to say is that when you implore others to "seek a relationship with God," you already have an idea of which God is to be sought. Further, those who themselves "seek a relationship with God" already have an idea of which God they are seeking, and it may or may not resemble your God.

<strong> No, my own thought experiments lead me to conclude that it is possible to seek X without believing X exists. What I assert is impossible is seeking X without a specific concept of X. What one must believe is that one will recognize X because X will have attributes A, B and C. It's not possible to seek something named 'God.'

<strong> I hope I have made my position clearer.

Asha'man

I searched long and hard, with an open mind and an open heart. I sincerely wanted a relationship with god, and I sincerely believed.

At no point did any omnipotent being make any attempt to reveal itself to me, participate in a conversation, or have a detectable relationship.

This is exactly the reaction I would expect IF god did not exist.

TerryTryon

SOMMS:
I suppose there is a tiny minority of atheists who have never been exposed to the god-concept and therefore have never considered the existence of god to be a relevant point. Most of the atheists I know were once believers.

Forgive if I over-interpreted what you meant by seeking with an open heart. But if you mean that one can find god by merely seeking but without showing faith, you are making god-seeking so facile that nearly every human being who ever heard the word god has met your criteria. Consequently, you are indirectly implying that atheists, by definition, are ignorami who make up their minds before they explore all options. This is a stupid assertion and deeply offensive. Most atheists I know have truly sought god not only according to your watered-down criteria, but with faith and have found nothing!

Damn. I didn't believe in germs, but I sought with open heart hoping to discover what others were talking about, and with the aid of a good microscope and a proper attitude, I found out that germs really existed and that they had a relationship to me. God is a bit more furtive.

If you really do mean that god will reveal himself to anyone who does nothing more than seek a relationship with him and who casts aside preconceptions of rather he exists or not, you are calling the great majority of both atheists and christians alike liars, because you are directly contradicting the testimony of each group with a proposition that is transparently untrue and patently ridiculous.

I gave your argument way too much credit.

Bumble Bee Tuna

SOMMS:

Could you please define what the "right attitude" is?

It seems you have already denied the claim that it involves believing God exists a priori. (though to the rest of us, this sounds like exactly what you're saying.

So what does it involve?

I would infer from your posts it is simply wanting to have the relationship with God.

If God exists, I would want to have a relationship with him.
Why hasn't He revealed himself to me?

-B

Hobbs

SOMMS, I recently started reading this thread (I had ignored it until someone else suggested reading it) and I haven't made it all the way through yet, so if someone else has already brought up this point I apologize for repeating it and I'll find your answer eventually.

Your claim is that God reveals himself only to those who are open to having a relationship with him, those who have the right attitude, those who truly want to meet him. How do you square this, and your testimony, with conflicting testimonies of the many Christians I have heard who parrot C.S. Lewis's claim that, against their will, God dragged them kicking and screaming into his fold? They claim that, like Lewis, they denied God, they did not want to meet God, and they tried to run when God pursued them, but God didn't let them get away.

Are you so certain about your understanding of God? Is it possible that, even if there is a God and you do have a relationship with him, that you do not have a good understanding of God? As an analogy, has there ever been a time in your life when someone you thought you knew well completely surprised you by something that person did, and you realized there was something significant about this person that you hadn't realized or that you had misunderstood? Is such a thing possible in your relationship with God? I'd like to know what you think of that, because I think that though your experiences are real, you have completely misunderstood the nature of them.