Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-09-2002, 11:18 AM

How do Christians (or those who think the Bible is a reliable source of history) reconcile these two passages (or others taken from <this page):

Acts 1:15
[this is after Jesus appeared to his disciples, hung out for 40 days and ascended to Heaven]
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) . . .

versus

1 Corinthians:5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, . . .

So in Acts, there are about 120 believers after the Ascension. But Paul refers to Jesus appearing to 500. Did this happen after the Ascension, in which case it would be counted as a spiritual appearance? Or what?

Mageth · 08-09-2002, 11:25 AM

I'm not one to defend the bible much, but the Acts passage doesn't seem to indicate that all believers were present.

Toto · 08-09-2002, 11:46 AM

In Acts 1:4, Jesus tells the group not to leave Jerusalem. (Of course, in Matthew he appears to his disciples in Galilee.) But at that point, there is no indication of any large number of believers, before the Apostles have gone out to preach.

Vorkosigan · 08-09-2002, 03:10 PM

Paul does not day where the 500 were....

Layman · 08-09-2002, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
<strong>In Acts 1:4, Jesus tells the group not to leave Jerusalem. (Of course, in Matthew he appears to his disciples in Galilee.) But at that point, there is no indication of any large number of believers, before the Apostles have gone out to preach.</strong>

You are forgetting Jesus' Galilee followers.

Afterall, he spent most of his ministry there. It's actually interesting that he had as many as 120 in Jerusalem. Lends credibility to John's account of Jesus visiting that city on previous occasions.

Besides, Mageth is right, it's not clear that Luke thought that every single Christians in Jerusalem was in the room.

Toto · 08-12-2002, 01:58 PM

I still have some questions about this passage, although the prior discussion is spread over two other threads and complicated with charges of dogmatism and other side issues. To summarize:

Robert Price thinks that 1 Cor 15:3-11 in an interpolation, because of its comflict with Paul's assertion in Galatians that he received the gospel directly from Christ, not from human predecessors such as the Pillars of the Jerusalem Church. See Apocryphal Apparitions. His view was criticized by William Lane Craig in an oral debate, and Price replied to some of Craig's criticism's here.

Peter Kirby disagrees that the entire passage is an interpolation, but thinks a case might be made for the verse concerning the '500' to be an interpolation. His arguments are in this thread, near the top of page 4 . I repeat them here:

Quote:

A couple years ago I made a post to Usenet in which I indicated succinctly why I do not think that Price's arguments form a convincing case for interpolation of 1 Cor 15:3-11. If I find that post, I will reproduce it here.

Although Price argues for interpolation of the whole passage, the suggestion of inteprolation for just the 500 reference has some arguments in its favor. Once upon a time, I said: "But many scholars consider 1Cor 15:6 to be an interpolation. On one interpretation, 1Cor 15:1-11 evinces two fourfold hymns (fused together a little): 'that Christ died for our sins, that he was buried, that he rose on the third day, and that he appeared' and 'Christ was seen by Kephas, then by the twelve; Next he was seen by James, then by all the apostles.' The long and awkward sentence of 1Cor 15:6 interrupts any kind of rythm or formulaic pattern there might have been. The focus of the tradition seems to be on notable leaders of the community, and thus the sudden mention of the 500 anonymous brethren seems to be an intrusion (Evans, _Resurrection_, pp. 50-51). And if Wilckens is right, this list is one establishing credentials, as one who claimed to be an apostle must have seen Jesus (cf. 1Cor 9:1). On the other hand, the reference to 500 witnesses available for corroboration can only be an apologetical device for the resurrection (Wilckens, _Resurrection_, p. 13). The extravagance of this claim seems more characteristic of later apocryphal writings. Moreover, it is difficult to understand why the evangelists left out this important detail if it were really an early tradition."

So the arguments include that (a) the long sentence interrupts a hymn, (b) all the other appearances are to leaders as though to establish credentials, (c) the claim seems to be a fancy similar to second century apocrypha, and (d) an early tradition of such importance would not have been passed over by the evangelists. The last argument is addressed by the speculation offered earlier. Argument (c) assumes that the first century was exempt from fancy. Arguments (a) and (b) depend on some sort of consistency in this list of appearances, which is reasonable but not certain. Although I have no trouble thinking that Paul wrote this, and although I am not convinced by the arguments for interpolation, the suggestion itself has merit and cannot be dismissed without due consideration.

On another level, Earl Doherty (and Dan Barker) assume that Paul wrote this passage, but that the "appearances" refer to internal mystical appearances (a/k/a "hallucinations"), not the appearance of a bodily resurrected Jesus. Acts, in this view, is later historical fiction, designed to create legitimacy for the church by showing a direct link from the resurrected Christ to the first apostles, so there is no need for it to be consistent, especially if one author was putting the finishing touches on Acts at about the same time someone else was compiling (and editing) Paul's correspondence.

I see a lot of merit to Peter's arguments that 15:6 is an interpolation; it might even be an interpolation on top of an interpolation. It looks like the order of the appearances is meant to establish a hierarchy in the church: Peter is listed first, ahead of James. The purpose of the 500 may be to provide an apologetic device in favor of the resurrection, but, even more so, to bump James down in the pecking order. (Jesus only bothered to appear to him after 500 anonymous believers.)

I would expect to find more about this in Eisenman's book, but I have just dipped into it.

I am interested to find out more why Peter disagrees with Price's idea of an interpolation.

Peter Kirby · 08-12-2002, 02:10 PM

Toto writes: I am interested to find out more why Peter disagrees with Price's idea of an interpolation.

I said that I do not think that Price's arguments form a convincing case for interpolation of 1 Cor 15:3-11 with reference to my thoughts on the article a couple years ago. I do not feel like studying the article again right now.

best,
Peter Kirby

lcb · 08-12-2002, 05:18 PM

how many christian men attended the promise keepers gathering in washington d.c. a few years back? compare the numbers in the N.Y. times L.A> times and C.N.N. and the Tulsa Tribune. ...why such tremendous numerical disparities? two million, one million, 700-900,000,etc

Toto · 08-12-2002, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
<strong>how many christian men attended the promise keepers gathering in washington d.c. a few years back? compare the numbers in the N.Y. times L.A> times and C.N.N. and the Tulsa Tribune. ...why such tremendous numerical disparities? two million, one million, 700-900,000,etc</strong>

That's not abnormal for estimating crowds. But suppose you claimed that there had been a Promise Keepers march on Washington with 1 million men last month, and no one else saw fit to mention it. Wouldn't that be suspicious?

lcb · 08-12-2002, 05:51 PM

anymore suspicious than a bedouin sheperd boy finding the dead sea scrolls in a cave, (where are all the other tens of thousands of scrolls from that same time?) who was in secular power in first century palestine? (Romans), and in religious power (Pharisees and sadduccees)...what was Saul going to Damascus to do? why did the early christians have to hide and worship in underground tombs?

08-09-2002, 11:18 AM	#1
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	How are Paul's writings reconciled with Acts? How do Christians (or those who think the Bible is a reliable source of history) reconcile these two passages (or others taken from <this page): Acts 1:15 [this is after Jesus appeared to his disciples, hung out for 40 days and ascended to Heaven] In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) . . . versus 1 Corinthians:5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, . . . So in Acts, there are about 120 believers after the Ascension. But Paul refers to Jesus appearing to 500. Did this happen after the Ascension, in which case it would be counted as a spiritual appearance? Or what?

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08-09-2002, 11:25 AM	#2
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'm not one to defend the bible much, but the Acts passage doesn't seem to indicate that all believers were present.

08-09-2002, 11:46 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	In Acts 1:4, Jesus tells the group not to leave Jerusalem. (Of course, in Matthew he appears to his disciples in Galilee.) But at that point, there is no indication of any large number of believers, before the Apostles have gone out to preach.

08-09-2002, 03:10 PM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Paul does not day where the 500 were....

08-12-2002, 02:10 PM	#7
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Toto writes: I am interested to find out more why Peter disagrees with Price's idea of an interpolation. I said that I do not think that Price's arguments form a convincing case for interpolation of 1 Cor 15:3-11 with reference to my thoughts on the article a couple years ago. I do not feel like studying the article again right now. best, Peter Kirby

08-12-2002, 05:18 PM	#8
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	how many christian men attended the promise keepers gathering in washington d.c. a few years back? compare the numbers in the N.Y. times L.A> times and C.N.N. and the Tulsa Tribune. ...why such tremendous numerical disparities? two million, one million, 700-900,000,etc

08-12-2002, 05:51 PM	#10
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	anymore suspicious than a bedouin sheperd boy finding the dead sea scrolls in a cave, (where are all the other tens of thousands of scrolls from that same time?) who was in secular power in first century palestine? (Romans), and in religious power (Pharisees and sadduccees)...what was Saul going to Damascus to do? why did the early christians have to hide and worship in underground tombs?

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