Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 03-05-2002, 08:23 PM

If one gives credence to these tales from the OT, then the story of Adam and Eve, and the great flood and the survival of only Noah and his family, leads one to only one conclusion; all humanity is the product of incest and inbreeding. Not just once, but twice.
In the story of Adam and Eve in the OT we get this; Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
OK, this is pretty clear, we all came from one set of parents.
Next we take a look at the tale of Noah and his family.
OT Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
This is pretty clear also, all living things but those in the ark were destroyed.
So what can we conclude from these passages? Clearly if the tale is true, all humanity is the product of incest and inbreeding, first with Adam and Eve and then again with Noah and family. I find it hard to square this tale from the OT with the difficulty of any species being able to produce enough offspring to go from two, to billions of people. It would be interesting to hear from a biologist as to the practical difficulties of this scenario.
Equally disturbing to me is the obvious moral implications of all this incest and inbreeding. All moral codes I know of, especially religious codes, forbid this kind of activity for well-known reasons. While it may be fun to imagine that this explains some of our weird relatives, it is difficult for me to square this with the moralizing we get from the theist set about sex and proper moral behavior. Ah the bible, so full of interesting contradictions, and all of them true if you are a true believer.

hal9000 · 03-06-2002, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:
So what can we conclude from these passages? Clearly if the tale is true, all humanity is the product of incest and inbreeding, first with Adam and Eve and then again with Noah and family. I find it hard to square this tale from the OT with the difficulty of any species being able to produce enough offspring to go from two, to billions of people. It would be interesting to hear from a biologist as to the practical difficulties of this scenario.
Equally disturbing to me is the obvious moral implications of all this incest and inbreeding. All moral codes I know of, especially religious codes, forbid this kind of activity for well-known reasons. While it may be fun to imagine that this explains some of our weird relatives, it is difficult for me to square this with the moralizing we get from the theist set about sex and proper moral behavior. Ah the bible, so full of interesting contradictions, and all of them true if you are a true believer.

It would be interesting to get the feedback from any of our members who is in the field of biology as to the possibility of this story of Adam and Eve being the parents of us all. I'm sure that the likes of Nomad or Metacrock etc will not respond to this second point. What can they say to defend the bible from it's own inane writings? They may as well <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

03-06-2002, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:
Ah the bible, so full of interesting contradictions, and all of them true if you are a true believer.

The bible is mythology and mythology desribes non-rational events using words coined by convention. If they would coin non-conventional words for these events they would be redundant becuase you would not be prive to them or you would not now be a literalist.

Radcliffe Emerson · 03-07-2002, 08:16 AM

Hi everyone. I'm new.
I read the bible from cover to cover over the last 3 years or so, then read books and articles about how, and when books in the bible were actually written.
My opinion of the Adam and Eve, Noah stuff is these are just fireside stories designed to illustrate to the tribes at the time there was one God. None of those stories, or the Moses parting the Sea story are factual.
I believe some of the history of Israel in the bible probably happened, but NONE of the supernatural stuff is true. Science has shown that all life on earth evolved from little single cells, and there were several different species of humans on the planet at the same time, so there's no way to me that there was an Adam and Eve, or a garden of Eden. Man did not fall into original sin, evil is just part of man's self-preservational nature.
I think if there is a supreme being or force, it has never interfered on this planet other than creating it. Everything else has happened through natural forces like evolution, and continues to happen naturally.

Radcliffe Emerson · 03-07-2002, 08:17 AM

I recommend two books by John Shelby Sponge.
"Why Christianity Must Change or Die", and "A New Christianity For A New World".
I really like and agree with alot of what Sponge says in these books.

Asha'man · 03-07-2002, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by askeptic:
Hi everyone. I'm new.

Hi there askeptic, and welcome to the II. I think you may like it here.

Drop by the "Welcome" forum and introduce yourself, that seems to be the best way to get started here.

Talulah · 03-07-2002, 12:44 PM

It may be helpful from an debate perspective if we got some theists on here who actually believe the bible the way fundamentalists actually view it.

hal9000 · 03-07-2002, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:


The bible is mythology and mythology desribes non-rational events using words coined by convention. If they would coin non-conventional words for these events they would be redundant becuase you would not be prive to them or you would not now be a literalist.

Good first sentence, the rest of this makes no sense IMHO.

Quote:

Originally posted by Talulah:
It may be helpful from an debate perspective if we got some theists on here who actually believe the bible the way fundamentalists actually view it.

Yoo-hoo Nomad, Metacrock and any other theists reading this care to step up to the plate? Seriously Talulah I�ll be real surprised if any of our resident fundies� er� theists tackle this subject. From what I have seen of them here they like the obtuse stuff that can be argued ad nauseum. Every time they get into one of these discussions they get their buts kicked so they stay away. I'd like to get some feedback on the practical problem of reproducing the entire human race from one set of parents. I�ll post A link to this in the science and skepticism forum and see if any of our more scientific minded members can give us the low down on the probabilities of this Adam and Eve thing happening.

A3 · 03-07-2002, 04:36 PM

Just passing through

If you would like to read another view on this topic, there is Swedenborg who wrote about Genesis and Exodus (and Revelation as well) giving it all a very unique and timeless meaning.
The experts (including Jewish scholars) seem to agree that the first books of the Bible were made-up history (including the creation story).
And also that the name Adam really means 'man' like 'the people', not one individual. That's why some 'persons' are said to hundreds of years old.
I have "the parable of creation" if anyone wants a copy.
Regards
Adrian

Echo · 03-08-2002, 05:01 AM

I can trot out the standard fundie explanation that is always given to me: Incest was okay at that time. It didn't become "wrong" until later.

That clears things up , eh?

03-05-2002, 08:23 PM	#1
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Adam & Eve, Noah; is all humanity the product of incest and inbreeding? If one gives credence to these tales from the OT, then the story of Adam and Eve, and the great flood and the survival of only Noah and his family, leads one to only one conclusion; all humanity is the product of incest and inbreeding. Not just once, but twice. In the story of Adam and Eve in the OT we get this; Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. OK, this is pretty clear, we all came from one set of parents. Next we take a look at the tale of Noah and his family. OT Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. This is pretty clear also, all living things but those in the ark were destroyed. So what can we conclude from these passages? Clearly if the tale is true, all humanity is the product of incest and inbreeding, first with Adam and Eve and then again with Noah and family. I find it hard to square this tale from the OT with the difficulty of any species being able to produce enough offspring to go from two, to billions of people. It would be interesting to hear from a biologist as to the practical difficulties of this scenario. Equally disturbing to me is the obvious moral implications of all this incest and inbreeding. All moral codes I know of, especially religious codes, forbid this kind of activity for well-known reasons. While it may be fun to imagine that this explains some of our weird relatives, it is difficult for me to square this with the moralizing we get from the theist set about sex and proper moral behavior. Ah the bible, so full of interesting contradictions, and all of them true if you are a true believer.

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03-07-2002, 08:16 AM	#4
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Hi everyone. I'm new. I read the bible from cover to cover over the last 3 years or so, then read books and articles about how, and when books in the bible were actually written. My opinion of the Adam and Eve, Noah stuff is these are just fireside stories designed to illustrate to the tribes at the time there was one God. None of those stories, or the Moses parting the Sea story are factual. I believe some of the history of Israel in the bible probably happened, but NONE of the supernatural stuff is true. Science has shown that all life on earth evolved from little single cells, and there were several different species of humans on the planet at the same time, so there's no way to me that there was an Adam and Eve, or a garden of Eden. Man did not fall into original sin, evil is just part of man's self-preservational nature. I think if there is a supreme being or force, it has never interfered on this planet other than creating it. Everything else has happened through natural forces like evolution, and continues to happen naturally.

03-07-2002, 08:17 AM	#5
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I recommend two books by John Shelby Sponge. "Why Christianity Must Change or Die", and "A New Christianity For A New World". I really like and agree with alot of what Sponge says in these books.

03-07-2002, 12:44 PM	#7
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	It may be helpful from an debate perspective if we got some theists on here who actually believe the bible the way fundamentalists actually view it.

03-07-2002, 04:36 PM	#9
A3 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 166	Just passing through If you would like to read another view on this topic, there is Swedenborg who wrote about Genesis and Exodus (and Revelation as well) giving it all a very unique and timeless meaning. The experts (including Jewish scholars) seem to agree that the first books of the Bible were made-up history (including the creation story). And also that the name Adam really means 'man' like 'the people', not one individual. That's why some 'persons' are said to hundreds of years old. I have "the parable of creation" if anyone wants a copy. Regards Adrian

03-08-2002, 05:01 AM	#10
Echo Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winter Park, Fl USA Posts: 411	I can trot out the standard fundie explanation that is always given to me: Incest was okay at that time. It didn't become "wrong" until later. That clears things up , eh?

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