Amos

Would an increase of girls born as opposed to boys qualify for this?

Amos

No the priest does not represent Jesus. You are confusing Catholic and protestant theology.

Amos

But after convergence there is no left or right hemisphere to distinguish or am I using the wrong word here? I use this word because Hardy used it in "The Convergence of the Twain" which is a poem that descibes the annihilation of the left and right hemisphere. He uses the Titanic and the iceberg to demonstrate the force of the Immanent Will that is behind such a collusion

Bible Humper

Hello Amos,

No, the sorcery described in the Malleus Maleficarum is not so subtle. The magical spell is described as having the effect of causing the man's penis to actually vanish into thin air.

I can understand your own disbelief regarding this kind of sorcery, believe me, but it is clearly what they were talking about. There is no way to rationalise this sorcery to be more "down to earth" , they actually thought that witches could literally fly, summon lightning, cast curses, summon demons, and many other outrageous sorcerous feats.

brighid

ManM,

I was raised as a Catholic. I have been baptized, had my 1st communion, my confirmation, served as a Youth Leader in my Church, taken Sunday School, and the whole 9 yards. My father was very active in the Church and preferred the Latin Mass and was both fluent in Latin and Polish. My mother is a staunch Catholic and I have read many an encylical, papal Bull, and most things I can get my hands on from the Vatican. I know the Catholic Church. I have given them the benefit of the doubt but their actions speak louder then their words. Furthermore, it’s obvious you aren’t Catholic if you don’t understand how actual punishment fits in with a Catholic upbringing. They have never had a problem with stern punishment!

If they believe in turning the other cheek – why excommunication as a “severe” punishment? Why must one make acts of contrition, confession and penance, and inudulgences if responsibility is not part of the act of forgiveness? I am not asking them to be hypocrites, but rather NOT to be hypocrites. The Church has a VERY long and sorted history in regards to punishment to those who were apostates, back sliders, heathens, Jews, infidels, witches etc. The Church also makes many very definitive declarations about what is right and wrong and does not say one must forgive, but no punish. The Church does not abdicate that a criminal should not serve a penalty for committing a crime, but they are opposed to the death penalty – not punishment in general.

The Church has specific penalties for breaking vows of celibacy – excommunication. Is not having sex with children breaking the vow of celibacy? Therefore, by their own dogmas, traditions, rules and regulations these men should be summarily excommunicated. They should apply the rules equally. They have not applied the rules equally and in relation to women’s ordination this is MY argument – all other tirades aside.

These men broke the law – yes or no?

Do all people who break the law deserve to be freed of their responsibilities because forgiveness is extended?

In the Code of Canon Law [CIC] of 1917, Canon 2359, paragraph 2, stated: "If they were to admit an offense against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue with minors under 16 years of age ... they must be suspended, be declared infamous, in case they should hold any type of office, benefit, dignity, or ministry they must be deprived of them, and in more serious cases, they must be deposed"

From Statement by Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy
March 21, 2002

"The laws of the Church are serious and severe and are conceived within framework of the apostolic tradition to treat internal matters internally, which does not mean that one subtracts oneself in the external public order from any civil regulation in force in the different countries."

Pius XII, in his address to the Sixth International Congress of Penal Law (1954) he said that “punishment is the reaction, required by law and justice, to crime: they are like a blow and a counter-blow. The order violated by the criminal act demands the restoration and reestablishment of the equilibrium which has been disturbed. The Catechism expresses the same conviction: the “primary aim” of punishment is “redressing the disordered introduced by the offense.” Pope John Paul II affirmed this stance in Evangelium Vitae.

Catholics believe in “temporal” punishments for civil crimes, as well as sins. The hypocrisy is not in extending forgiveness to any criminal or sinner, but by the inequitable nature they apply their own punishments and extended that forgiveness.

They Catholics turn the cheek and defy their own code of rules and denoted punishments for these priests, but the swiftly and “judiciously” apply these rules and punishments to ordained women. WHY? Is that not hypocritical and hence sending the message that the graver sin/crime is the ordination of women?

Brighid

brighid

ScoW,
The Malleus is a scary book – that had the full support of the Church in the form of a beautiful Papal Bull extolling the virtues of said text. One the best sellers list of the time is held a steady 2nd to the Bible. It was a sin, punishable by death (if my recollection serves me) to disbelieve in witches and the powers as set forth in the “Witches Hammer.” Its quite good fiction, that was unfortunately taken as God given fact and responsible for more then a few men, women and children dieing agonizing deaths. It has to also be one of the most misogynistic books I have ever come across.

As a woman, reading that book made me physically ill to read how, by default of my gender all sorts of evil and vile things were attributed to me. The book is sick and it alone is enough to wonder which “spirit” actually possess and guides the Church!

An excerpt: Now the wickedness of women is spoken of in Ecclesiasticus xxv: There is no head above the head of a serpent: and there is no wrath above the wrath of a woman. I had rather dwell with a lion and a dragon than to keep house with a wicked woman. And among much which in that place precedes and follows about a wicked woman, he concludes: All wickedness is but little to the wickedness of a woman. Wherefore S. John Chrysostom says on the text, It is not good to marry (S. Matthew xix): What else is woman but a foe to friendship, an unescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic danger, a delectable detriment, an evil of nature, painted with fair colours! Therefore if it be a sin to divorce her when she ought to be kept, it is indeed a necessary torture; for either we commit adultery by divorcing her, or we must endure daily strife. Cicero in his second book of The Rhetorics says: The many lusts of men lead them into one sin, but the lust of women leads them into all sins; for the root of all woman's vices is avarice. And Seneca says in his Tragedies: A woman either loves or hates; there is no third grade. And the tears of woman are a deception, for they may spring from true grief, or they may be a snare. When a woman thinks alone, she thinks evil.

.... hmmmm Amos ... have you been reading this book?

Brighid

<a href="http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/" target="_blank">http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/</a>

ManM – I highly suggest browsing the site to get a better view of the Catholic historical view on women and punishment.

edited to add - the Rutgers site "Best Witches" that I would normally link to for the Malleus seems to be down and this is sort of a fall back, but some doubt may be cast on the commentary because of the author - Wiccasta Lovelace. However, her commentary is in line with other sites I have read.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

Amos

Never even heard of it Brighid. It sounds wrong because I am not in favor of fear mongering.

I like this line by Seneca: "A woman either loves or hates; there is no third grade. And the tears of woman are a deception, for they may spring from true grief, or they may be a snare. When a woman thinks alone, she thinks evil."

Women are to be admired for this love/hate nature because, as I think, only this can make them sensitive and sensuous if the right strings are pulled. Kind of like a harp, we could say, with each a mind of their own. Anyway, if the last part of your citation is true a woman must always be forgiven because it is wrong to call her inferior and then slam her for acting inferior.

Hardy held that all humans have a "salemandrine fire" burning within that propels them towards a desired end (predestined by the Immanent Will).

Did you know that Senecan Tragedies are failed Divine Comedies and are fertile breeding ground for witches? The only difference between a Divine Comedy and a Senecan Tragedy is the ending. Both have a rising action and a similar crisis moment (Comedy is parody and tragedy is ecstacy). After the crisis moment resurrection transforms life into a comedy and without resurrection life will become a tragedy . . . because remember, a crisis moment always brings change. I should add here that "burning at the stake" is symbolic for failing to resurrect. The stake is the cross and the fire is symbolic for the burning desire to be united with God. Do you see here how women can be engulved with salemandrine fires after an ecstatic crisis moment (just go to the Baptist board).

Notice that in the Eastern rite of the Church Christmas is not celebrated until after Epiphany because without the renewal of the mind (that's what epiphany means) the old nature will return but this time much worse than it was before (a change is always for better or worse and without a "third grade"). The "clean house" parable speaks on this because there was always at least one demon left in a Senecan tragedy which of course was the reason for ecstacy during the criscis moment now become a dragon).

Sorry I am sidewinding but thought that this may be of interest to you.

Amos

Hello SCoW, you asked me the following questions



You can find the answer to the first question in my answer to Brighid above and specifically where I describe the difference between the grounds for a crisis moment. To see it in real life go to a crusade and see how easily women get persuaded when the evangelist is tugging on their spiritual hymen. I agree that males have one too and so not all witches are females.

In the bible scorcery is practiced by "the wolf in sheeps clothing." Today we call them charismatic evangelists that are trying to convert the converted and claim that unless you have Jesus like they do you are not a Christian etc. This prompts the altar call and is based on our desire to be counted among the righteous etc. I am sure you know them well.

To convert the converted you are of the same flock and therefore wear sheeps clothing. You are a wolf because you devour the weak and unstable of the flock who want more out of life than they now have (parable of the rich man). The rationale here is that if Jesus can make me happy why not take him along as well.

The Church is very familiar with the techniques and used it effectively to convert pagans into their flock. This made them (eg. the Jesuits) wolves indeed but of a different cloth and thus not in sheeps clothing. Inside the Church it was never allowed because it would cause a riot among the faithfull who saw a new charisma in the old believer and became convinced that the Church with all its dogmatic constitution was wrong and a hindrance to salvation. The fact was that the "angel of light" was called to action and the Church knew this very well and so always condemend charismatic reform movements. As a side note, the evidence of this is that the protestant church can rightfully claim apostolic tradition on the anthema side of the Church which only proves that witches always conjure up new recipes to brew from.



Yes, if you think so and I agree that without consequences there is no law.

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Amos

But witches can fly and do all of the above in a literal way . . . but not in a literal way as you understand the word literal. The lightning flash is to cause other to "see the light" about which they will sing for the rest of their days. The broom is the bundle of scriptures they burn each day in effort to stay aloft in midheaven and the better the brew they concoct the higher they sore each new day.

The penis will vanish into thin air because masculinity is an illusion created out of thin air with the vagina being the negative stand in the controversy out of which the penis is erected.

Theli

I never mentioned either Catholics or Protestants.
Isn't this a problem for both sides?

So, Amos... Why aren't women generally allowed to become priests?