Freethought & Rationalism Archive

beastmaster · 04-01-2003, 10:18 AM

There are two kinds of faith:

(1) Faith in the Existence of God
(2) Faith in the Providence of God

It is not obvious that the first kind of faith is virtuous or necessary. It seems to me that the existence of god should be based on evidence, not faith.

However, the second kind of faith is considered virtuous and necessary (i.e., eternal). Once the existence of god is established or presupposed, all that is left is to determine our relationship with Him. Because humans cannot comprehend God, we will never "know" the true nature of god. Some believers despair that God cannot be trusted, let alone understood ("God moves in mysterious ways"). According to Xns, we must and should have faith that God loves us and will provide for us.

spurly · 04-01-2003, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
Spurly - OK, so Jesus told us to love our neighbours as ourselves, but I thought there�s something about a person having to believe in Jesus before getting ever-lasting life? And isn't there also something about repentance?
Love - without belief and repentance - is not, I think, sufficient.
According to your fellow Christian, the redoubtable Ed, it�s certainly not sufficient. I have questioned him on that very point and he has told me, unambiguously, that not to believe the divinity of Jesus Christ will send you to hell, no matter how loving you�ve been.
Believing that Jesus Christ is God is therefore - according to Ed - the primary virtue.
Perhaps you don�t agree with him?
If not, it won�t be the first time we have seen Christians unable to agree on fundamental doctrine.

Why is that?

Who know who is right?

Who is the final arbiter, and how does this final arbiter make his / her / its judgment known to us poor mortals before we die? Or must we die, then find out we�d got it all wrong?
(I don�t suppose any of this troubles you at all.
It doesn�t trouble me, either, but that�s because god doesn�t exist.
But if you believe in God, then I think you owe it to your intellect to try working these things through.)

Why is love the supreme virtue? Because it is what we were created for. We were created to love God and be loved by him. The supreme virtue of God is love - thus he has woven that as the supreme virtue into all of his creation.

Faith is simply a stepping stone which allows you to get back to the supreme virtue of loving God with everything we have.

We were created to love.

As to who is the final arbiter, of course it is the author of life, God himself. But as for questions like these, it is no problem for Christians to disagree. Because we are humans, we will never perfectly understand everything. However, we can all understand the significance of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and that causes us to reach out to God in love.

Kevin

Opera Nut · 04-01-2003, 08:30 PM

"Like all weak men, he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind." -- William Somerset Maugham, Of Human Bondage[novel], 1915.

=====
Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. ---Ralph Waldo Emerson

Solanalos · 04-01-2003, 09:35 PM

That is a great quote.

Stephen T-B · 04-02-2003, 08:25 AM

Your idea, Spurly, that we were created to love is an attractive one.
I like the idea that the entity referred to as �God� is a being of pure love which is required by its nature to give love, but can only do so when its love is freely reciprocated. It therefore created the Universe as a necessary framework for the evolution of beings capable of comprehending love and the existence of an other-dimension entity into which and out of which love flows.
According to this appealing but batty notion, in order that love can be freely reciprocated, there must be an alternative which we may also choose, ie its antithesis - hate. For this reason, love and hate and their corollaries of generosity and meanness and selflessness and selfishness exist side by side.

Christ may possibly have had an inkling of this.

Unfortunately there are naturalistic and far more plausible explanations for these contradictory impulses. They are to do with the demands of socialisation and survival, and can be seen, in somewhat elementary forms, in less intelligent species.
(Or is it the case that dogs, elephants, dolphins, chimps etc are simply on lower rungs of the ladder, as, indeed, we are when compared with the more intelligent species which will succeed us, or which already exist elsewhere in the Universe?)

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04-01-2003, 10:18 AM	#11
beastmaster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Madrid / I am a: Lifelong atheist Posts: 885	There are two kinds of faith: (1) Faith in the Existence of God (2) Faith in the Providence of God It is not obvious that the first kind of faith is virtuous or necessary. It seems to me that the existence of god should be based on evidence, not faith. However, the second kind of faith is considered virtuous and necessary (i.e., eternal). Once the existence of god is established or presupposed, all that is left is to determine our relationship with Him. Because humans cannot comprehend God, we will never "know" the true nature of god. Some believers despair that God cannot be trusted, let alone understood ("God moves in mysterious ways"). According to Xns, we must and should have faith that God loves us and will provide for us.

04-01-2003, 08:30 PM	#13
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	"Like all weak men, he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind." -- William Somerset Maugham, Of Human Bondage[novel], 1915. ===== Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. ---Ralph Waldo Emerson

04-01-2003, 09:35 PM	#14
Solanalos Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Under A Barbell Posts: 198	That is a great quote.

04-02-2003, 08:25 AM	#15
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Your idea, Spurly, that we were created to love is an attractive one. I like the idea that the entity referred to as �God� is a being of pure love which is required by its nature to give love, but can only do so when its love is freely reciprocated. It therefore created the Universe as a necessary framework for the evolution of beings capable of comprehending love and the existence of an other-dimension entity into which and out of which love flows. According to this appealing but batty notion, in order that love can be freely reciprocated, there must be an alternative which we may also choose, ie its antithesis - hate. For this reason, love and hate and their corollaries of generosity and meanness and selflessness and selfishness exist side by side. Christ may possibly have had an inkling of this. Unfortunately there are naturalistic and far more plausible explanations for these contradictory impulses. They are to do with the demands of socialisation and survival, and can be seen, in somewhat elementary forms, in less intelligent species. (Or is it the case that dogs, elephants, dolphins, chimps etc are simply on lower rungs of the ladder, as, indeed, we are when compared with the more intelligent species which will succeed us, or which already exist elsewhere in the Universe?)

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