Secular Pinoy

Your belief in Jesus' divinity is absolutely unbiblical, since Jews have only the OT as scripture. All your justifications for Jesus' divinity, and the general idea that the messiah ought to be divine, is based on the NT, which no follower of Judaism accepts as scripture. None of the verses you cited are in the OT, Maggie. How can a Jew accept the idea that the messiah ought to be divine, and co-equal with god, based on the OT?

I hate to repeat myself, but you should really drop your act. You are a Christian of Jewish Descent. You cannot refer to your belief as Messianic Judaism without being dishonest.

Magus55

Um news for you - Jews DO have the NT as scripture, they just throw it out without even bothering to read it. The majority of the people in the NT were Jews. They all followed OT Judaism, and Christ. Don't give me that cop out that Jews don't have the NT, they can go to their book store and pick it up. God says He broke the Old Convenant, most Jews have just never even read the NT to see that. Thats their problem, and God will deal with them for their rejection.

Peter Kirby

Magus, did you know that you can get a Free Book of Mormon? You don't even have to go to the bookstore, so I don't want to hear any copouts on how you're not going read it and accept it as gospel.

best,
Peter Kirby

Benjamin Franklin

I am tempted to request for the book but I am wary about giving my address and telephone number away (after all I am doing a telemarketing job and I know what happens when people give their phone numbers away too easily). Would they start spamming you with Mormon literature and phone calls once they have your contact details ?

BF

Ps - Would it be possible to get a free copy of the Koran too ?

Secular Pinoy

Question, Magus: Do you accept all the religious writings during the period of the NT, including the Apocrypha? They were written by Jews too, or does your acceptance of what constitutes the official canon include only those which early Christians, some of whom were never Jewish, have chosen as canonical? How about the Talmud, which are definitely Jewish Writings, are they scripture, and part of the Canon?

I take it you can NEVER answer my question of whether there are any messianic prophecies in the Tanakh which says that the Messiah is divine, and co-equal with god? Alas, such is the case with creating half-baked deceptions, they unravel really fast when scrutinized.

Peter Kirby

That's very possible. I don't know. I do know that the boys in white shirts will want to talk to you when giving you the book. If that bothers you, try getting a used copy (there are some listed on Amazon for pennies plus shipping).

Check here.

best,
Peter Kirby

NOGO

You cannot understand what is being said unless you see that there is a double talk through all of the Gospel of John

Here is one of the better examples

John 6
Words in public

51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."


Words to the Disciples

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.


Notice that in public Jesus says that he is the bread of life and whoever eats this flesh has eternal life.

But to his disciples in private Jesus explains what he means.
The bread of life is his teachings.

In other words, it is the Spirit of God within Jesus that said "I am the bread of life" not Jesus the man. The bread of life is the Word of God... Get it?

The last supper is a symbolic re-enactment of giving and accepting of the Word of God.

Jesus is one with God because he accepted the Word of God and if the disciples did the same then they too are one with God.

When Jesus says that before Abraham was born I am, it is the Spirit of God within Jesus who is speaking not Jesus. That is the reason you will find at times Jesus speaking about himself in the third person.

The Gospel of John cannot be understood unless one can distinguish the two entities speaking through the mouth of Jesus.

Magus55

Ok Nogo, why does Jesus say, He who has seen me, has seen my Father? Can't be the Holy Spirit, because its invisible, and the Apostles can't see that - Jesus had to be talking about himself.

Kosh

Not that any of this really matters. With the Gospels written so long after (assuming there was a Jesus, Mark after 70 ad and the others to follow with John dated at around 110), you're only debating what he is claimed to have said, not knowing what was actually said. You are debating the claims of people writing with an agenda.

This is sorta like debating why the Klingons in TNG look different than the ones in TOS.

Kilgore Trout

Magus55 said

I did not mean to compare Jesus and the apostles. What I meant was you claim Jesus is EXACTLY the same as god because he IS god. The apostles cannot be EXACTLY the same as each other. If Jesus is god the apostles would have to be clones of each other or something like that in order for them to be one just as Jesus and the Father are one.

The whole point is that Jesus is asking the apostles to be one in the sense of the "all for one, one for all" ideal that the 3 Musketeers have. You understand it in the same way I do, if I am not mistaken. Therefore that is exactly the way that Jesus says he is "one" with the father, that he has solidarity with him like the apostles should have with each other.


I did not claim Evangelion is a "true" christian, I just said you were a hypocrite judging him. I don't think there are any "true" christians, because nobody follows all the teachings of Jesus. He says idiotic things like "If someone asks you for something, give it to him." So I guess if a bum asks you for $10,000 you are supposed to give it to him.



The foundation of Judaism is following the Torah Laws, which are supposed to last forever. It is not based on worshipping the messiah. The messiah is supposed to be a human king, so worshipping him is blashpemy. God does not say in the Torah that he is part of a trinity, so worshipping a god who is a trinity is worshipping a false god.

It would not make sense for god to change the covenant. What's to stop someone from coming along saying he changed it again? He already said the first one would last forever, so apparently forever doesn't mean anything to him. So anyone could claim that Jesus' "New Covenant" was just a "shadow of things to come" like the Book of Hebrews claims about the "Old Covenant."