Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oolon Colluphid · 03-10-2003, 07:18 AM

We can reject �psychic abilities� out of hand. There�s two reasons.

One is that they fall foul of Ockham�s razor: they are more convoluted hypotheses than are required to explain the phenomena. We know, for instance, that stage magicians can do apparently psychic things without recourse to weird mental abilities. Since psychic abilities hypotheses would involve rejecting much well-established physics, they are not parsimonious. Therefore slight of hand -- muscle-over-metal rather than mind over matter -- and coincidence, should be the default explanations.

And secondly and more fundamentally, as proposed explanations for unusual phenomena, �psychic abilities� hypotheses have �too much design of the wrong kind�. They propose a hypothesis to explain something; but we can make predictions from that: what sorts of things might we reasonably find if it were the case? And we find that the predictions are not borne out.

Also, the �psychic� explanations make no mention of the weird limitations that are placed on the abilities. Why does Uri Geller, for instance, have to handle an object to cause an effect? Why not touch it with his nose? And why bend keys and spoons, but not pound coins? Why are the effects limited to the sorts of things that conjurers can also do? Too much design of the wrong kind.

The �people can read minds, predict the future etc� hypothesis, for instance, is tested every day in every court of law, school room, race track and betting office, and in many marriages -- in every social interaction, in fact. And it is found wanting. �Psychic abilities� hypotheses are constantly falsified. Therefore we can reject them as explanations, even if we do not know what the real answer is. We may not know what the cause of a phenomenon is, but we can be sure that the proposed cause ain�t it.

Two useful books on all this are Hines�s Pseudoscience and the Paranormal and Nicholas Humphrey�s Leaps of Faith (�Soul Searching� in the UK) (whence the Argument from Unwarranted Design above).

Cheers, DT

03-10-2003, 04:55 PM

by Answerer

Hey guys, could the psychic abilities like sixth sense, foretelling and mind-reading (if existed) be connected to the quantum process that have existed in our minds?

As far as quantum physics is concerned, it doesn't rule out the possibility of having existing abilities.

Later qoute :

Well, I never said quantum physics justifies all sorts of psychic abilities, I only said that it never ruled out the possibilities of the existence of those abilities. And I will continue to be a skeptic in this aspect.

My reply : Hmmm .... interesting. I think I can understand a bit but not fully. Mind explaining a bit?

By Lobstrosity

[b] This isn't seeing the future, this is making predictions . This is using psychology or physics to try to figure out what will happen. Some people are better at it than others but in general it doesn't work so well. I was talking about people who actually claim see the future--people who aren't actually present to witness the intial conditions of an event. Also, I think the dice thing is bullshit. The human brain doesn't perform those kinds of calculations. It's not structured that way. Anyone who can do that sort of thing can also multiply 432091903280 by 39012380532 in their heads in a fraction of a second (after all, isn't that the sort of thing they're doing in order to predict the precise forces the die will be subjected to?). Next time you see someone claim to have these powers, ask them to do a "simple" multiplication problem like the one above in their heads. If they can't do it, you know they're full of crap.

My reply : You say it is prediction and I said it is seeing the future. Frankly speaking, I don't see any difference.

You speak of mathematical calculation while I speak of event calculation ... where a person take into account of various events - the way a person speak, act and reacts and his behaviors to come out various possible outcomes from him and add that to whatever events thrown at him and you get a possible prediction of the "future" of a person.

Not everyone who can predict such things are good at maths, why? Because Maths are too simplified data and there is too many rules governing mathematical calculation - like those within bracets must be solved first, + before - etc. In human events, there is no such rules and regulations except that which set by him or herself.

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about communication here, I'm talking about reading minds. How do TVs and radios read minds? I feel like I'm missing something.

My reply : Again ... you don't get the picture of it. When I refer to mind reading, I was referring to COMMUNICATION. Communication between two organic "machines".

How do Radios and TVs work? Simple ... by receiving data from form of signals emitted from another machine via its antenna. Only difference here is there is two machines here ... one emit data and another receive it (when comes to TV). In radio (especially those 2-way radios), both transmit and receive signals from each other.

Yes, I know what thoughts are. You still haven't explained anything, though. The crux of my argument is based on how another brain would detect this information. First of all, how is the information getting out of your skull? How do the details of your thoughts get transmitted? Second of all, assuming you can answer that, what then receives this transmitted information? Yeah, it's all a great "what if," but it's nothing more than that. What if we're all being controlled by a giant slug on Pluto? Thirdly, why do we still even bother to speak to each other if we have this other ability to communicate? Clearly if it's possible to read minds, why don't we do all our communication that way? Verbal communication is actually detrimental to our survival because it requires the throat to be constructed in such a way as to make choking easier. Why have this needless risk when you could just talk with your mind?

My reply : OK, I will try to answer based on my discussion with "friends" before.

Question 1 : How does the information leaves the skull? My answer is ... it doesn't.
Not sure how the actual process works but it is like ... putting a tracing paper (not sure if your country has one ... it is a very thin paper which you put over another paper with some sketch on it and just draw onto the tracing paper to get the pattern). The person who "read" minds simply "trace" your thoughts by comparing it with his/her own and come out with similar thoughts. Maybe that is why my friend doesn't like the whole process and sometimes even avoid physical touchs.

To me the idea of mind reading is on par with the idea of creating a LAN by just putting a few computers next to each other and just hoping that they will communicate. Forget that they are actually designed to pass data through specific channels...let's just hope one processor can tell what the other processors are doing somehow.

My reply : That is a good way to put it. But you do know that communication can be achieved from one computer to another without physical communication. Example is communication from satellites and receiving stations on the Planet.

I just made up a number. I've heard a few people in the past claim to have telekinesis. Most will use their "minds" to move needles across the table or bend spoons. Sadly people like James Randi can demonstrate how this is all accomplished by sleight of hand, thin pieces of string, or some other deception.

My reply : OK.

03-10-2003, 05:16 PM

By Jan Haugland

Not at all very hard to explain, and it's basically what we should expect.

A significant number of mothers go around being worried about their children a lot of the time. If nothing bad happens, as it does most of the time, she forgets about the bad feeling. When something bad actually happens, once on a blue moon, as it's bound to, she remembers that she "sensed" this danger and it confirms her belief she has some sixth sense.

My reply : That's not very strong argument, especially when the worried mother will successfully pick THAT day which her child have problem to have such "feeling".

By Mad Kally

Please explain how a TV or radio reads your mind. It sounds all too familiar to me, but not anything to do with psychic ability. Does the TV or radio say things to you?

My reply : Did already in my first post (reply to Lobstrosity). Refer to that and ask questions if you don't understand.

PS : Don't tell me that your mother accused you of being a mind-reading witch now after been accused of being possessed by a Demon.

By JenniferD

I think that is just more anecdotal evidence. Until the results can be duplicated in a test situation , under the scientific method, I still say that it is bogus. I can give you HUNDREDS of examples of times where my mom and I have "read each others' minds" but it is simply coincidence. The rest of my post, which you snipped off, explains a couple of the reasons I was able to reconcile my doubts on that issue.

Jen

My reply : And HOW do you propose they do that? By going around to some happy families and putting guns to their kids' head and see whether their mothers will rush back home to save their children?
We are talking about life and death situation here and I don't see how you can duplicate that in a lab.

Answerer · 03-10-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
But how would it rule them out? Nobody's even postulated how they would physically work, so no existing theory can possibly rule them out (besides the Theory of No Psychic Powers--or TNPP for short). GR doesn't rule them out. Superstring theory doesn't rule them out. Quantum chromodynamics doesn't rule them out. I could probably go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Well, according to what I see in some hard-ore anti-psyhics, they like to use science as the focus of their arguments, I can't remember the actual arguments that they had made but I know one of the arguments got something to do with the violation of the conservation of energy.

:banghead: :banghead:

Answerer · 03-10-2003, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim

My reply : Hmmm .... interesting. I think I can understand a bit but not fully. Mind explaining a bit?

I'm not fully certain myself. There are still lots of mysteries in the Quantum field that remain unresolved yet. But quantum entanglement may held the answer to our doubts. In quantum entanglement, two particles are behaved as though they are one and no matter how great their distances between them are, they are dependent on each other.

Shadowy Man · 03-10-2003, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim

My reply : That is a good way to put it. But you do know that communication can be achieved from one computer to another without physical communication. Example is communication from satellites and receiving stations on the Planet.

Yes, but we know exactly how this is done. It is done in a repeatable, measurable fashion. Anyone can set up a satellite dish and measure the transmission for themselves. Some people even charge other people to do that very experiment.

If you are suggesting that mind-reading is performed in a similar way, then we should be able to measure the transmission of thoughts in a repeatable, measurable fashion.

03-10-2003, 08:14 PM

By Answerer

I'm not fully certain myself. There are still lots of mysteries in the Quantum field that remain unresolved yet. But quantum entanglement may held the answer to our doubts. In quantum entanglement, two particles are behaved as though they are one and no matter how great their distances between them are, they are dependent on each other.

My reply : They depend on each other for existance? Supporting each other by increase and decrease of energy fluctulations, I persume? Don't know why ... but that is the first thought (that and the image of a long, silver tape which connected to each other ... not sure the name of it but I had seen it once) appeared to my head when I read your post (a good one too).

By Shadowy Man

Yes, but we know exactly how this is done. It is done in a repeatable, measurable fashion. Anyone can set up a satellite dish and measure the transmission for themselves. Some people even charge other people to do that very experiment.

If you are suggesting that mind-reading is performed in a similar way, then we should be able to measure the transmission of thoughts in a repeatable, measurable fashion.

My question : What device do you use to measure brain activities which results in thoughts?
I know doctors could tell when a person is having dreams by looking at REM (or was it Alpha) waves in the brain, but what about thoughts during awake and active state?

Mad Kally · 03-10-2003, 08:22 PM

Quote:

posted by Seraphim:
My reply : Did already in my first post (reply to Lobstrosity). Refer to that and ask questions if you don't understand.

PS : Don't tell me that your mother accused you of being a mind-reading witch now after been accused of being possessed by a Demon.

That was a cheap shot, but what else could I expect from you?

Even my mom doesn't believe in psychics, mind reading, etc. I do believe I've found someone even more whacked out than her.

I asked if the TV was talking to you because that is a symptom of schizophrenia. I was curious and I was serious.

03-10-2003, 08:26 PM

That was a cheap shot, but what else could I expect from you?

Even my mom doesn't believe in psychics, mind reading, etc. I do believe I've found someone even more whacked out than her.

My reply : Well ... good luck with whoever it is ...

I asked if the TV was talking to you because that is a symptom of schizophrenia. I was curious and I was serious.

My reply : No, the TV wasn't talking to me ... I was referring to TV when I stated how Mind reading could have worked.

Shadowy Man · 03-10-2003, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim

My question : What device do you use to measure brain activities which results in thoughts?
I know doctors could tell when a person is having dreams by looking at REM (or was it Alpha) waves in the brain, but what about thoughts during awake and active state?

Well, they generally use an electroencephalogram (EEG), a diagnostic test that measures the electrical activity of the brain (brain waves) using high sensitive recording equipment attached to the scalp by fine electrodes.

Now, I'd really be impressed if someone could set up an EEG machine not in contact with a person and still be measuring that person's brain waves! That could probably count as decent evidence of telepathic transmissions.

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03-10-2003, 07:18 AM	#51
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	We can reject �psychic abilities� out of hand. There�s two reasons. One is that they fall foul of Ockham�s razor: they are more convoluted hypotheses than are required to explain the phenomena. We know, for instance, that stage magicians can do apparently psychic things without recourse to weird mental abilities. Since psychic abilities hypotheses would involve rejecting much well-established physics, they are not parsimonious. Therefore slight of hand -- muscle-over-metal rather than mind over matter -- and coincidence, should be the default explanations. And secondly and more fundamentally, as proposed explanations for unusual phenomena, �psychic abilities� hypotheses have �too much design of the wrong kind�. They propose a hypothesis to explain something; but we can make predictions from that: what sorts of things might we reasonably find if it were the case? And we find that the predictions are not borne out. Also, the �psychic� explanations make no mention of the weird limitations that are placed on the abilities. Why does Uri Geller, for instance, have to handle an object to cause an effect? Why not touch it with his nose? And why bend keys and spoons, but not pound coins? Why are the effects limited to the sorts of things that conjurers can also do? Too much design of the wrong kind. The �people can read minds, predict the future etc� hypothesis, for instance, is tested every day in every court of law, school room, race track and betting office, and in many marriages -- in every social interaction, in fact. And it is found wanting. �Psychic abilities� hypotheses are constantly falsified. Therefore we can reject them as explanations, even if we do not know what the real answer is. We may not know what the cause of a phenomenon is, but we can be sure that the proposed cause ain�t it. Two useful books on all this are Hines�s Pseudoscience and the Paranormal and Nicholas Humphrey�s Leaps of Faith (�Soul Searching� in the UK) (whence the Argument from Unwarranted Design above). Cheers, DT

03-10-2003, 04:55 PM	#52
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	by Answerer Hey guys, could the psychic abilities like sixth sense, foretelling and mind-reading (if existed) be connected to the quantum process that have existed in our minds? As far as quantum physics is concerned, it doesn't rule out the possibility of having existing abilities. Later qoute : Well, I never said quantum physics justifies all sorts of psychic abilities, I only said that it never ruled out the possibilities of the existence of those abilities. And I will continue to be a skeptic in this aspect. My reply : Hmmm .... interesting. I think I can understand a bit but not fully. Mind explaining a bit? By Lobstrosity [b] This isn't seeing the future, this is making predictions . This is using psychology or physics to try to figure out what will happen. Some people are better at it than others but in general it doesn't work so well. I was talking about people who actually claim see the future--people who aren't actually present to witness the intial conditions of an event. Also, I think the dice thing is bullshit. The human brain doesn't perform those kinds of calculations. It's not structured that way. Anyone who can do that sort of thing can also multiply 432091903280 by 39012380532 in their heads in a fraction of a second (after all, isn't that the sort of thing they're doing in order to predict the precise forces the die will be subjected to?). Next time you see someone claim to have these powers, ask them to do a "simple" multiplication problem like the one above in their heads. If they can't do it, you know they're full of crap. My reply : You say it is prediction and I said it is seeing the future. Frankly speaking, I don't see any difference. You speak of mathematical calculation while I speak of event calculation ... where a person take into account of various events - the way a person speak, act and reacts and his behaviors to come out various possible outcomes from him and add that to whatever events thrown at him and you get a possible prediction of the "future" of a person. Not everyone who can predict such things are good at maths, why? Because Maths are too simplified data and there is too many rules governing mathematical calculation - like those within bracets must be solved first, + before - etc. In human events, there is no such rules and regulations except that which set by him or herself. What are you talking about? I'm not talking about communication here, I'm talking about reading minds. How do TVs and radios read minds? I feel like I'm missing something. My reply : Again ... you don't get the picture of it. When I refer to mind reading, I was referring to COMMUNICATION. Communication between two organic "machines". How do Radios and TVs work? Simple ... by receiving data from form of signals emitted from another machine via its antenna. Only difference here is there is two machines here ... one emit data and another receive it (when comes to TV). In radio (especially those 2-way radios), both transmit and receive signals from each other. Yes, I know what thoughts are. You still haven't explained anything, though. The crux of my argument is based on how another brain would detect this information. First of all, how is the information getting out of your skull? How do the details of your thoughts get transmitted? Second of all, assuming you can answer that, what then receives this transmitted information? Yeah, it's all a great "what if," but it's nothing more than that. What if we're all being controlled by a giant slug on Pluto? Thirdly, why do we still even bother to speak to each other if we have this other ability to communicate? Clearly if it's possible to read minds, why don't we do all our communication that way? Verbal communication is actually detrimental to our survival because it requires the throat to be constructed in such a way as to make choking easier. Why have this needless risk when you could just talk with your mind? My reply : OK, I will try to answer based on my discussion with "friends" before. Question 1 : How does the information leaves the skull? My answer is ... it doesn't. Not sure how the actual process works but it is like ... putting a tracing paper (not sure if your country has one ... it is a very thin paper which you put over another paper with some sketch on it and just draw onto the tracing paper to get the pattern). The person who "read" minds simply "trace" your thoughts by comparing it with his/her own and come out with similar thoughts. Maybe that is why my friend doesn't like the whole process and sometimes even avoid physical touchs. To me the idea of mind reading is on par with the idea of creating a LAN by just putting a few computers next to each other and just hoping that they will communicate. Forget that they are actually designed to pass data through specific channels...let's just hope one processor can tell what the other processors are doing somehow. My reply : That is a good way to put it. But you do know that communication can be achieved from one computer to another without physical communication. Example is communication from satellites and receiving stations on the Planet. I just made up a number. I've heard a few people in the past claim to have telekinesis. Most will use their "minds" to move needles across the table or bend spoons. Sadly people like James Randi can demonstrate how this is all accomplished by sleight of hand, thin pieces of string, or some other deception. My reply : OK.

03-10-2003, 05:16 PM	#53
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	By Jan Haugland Not at all very hard to explain, and it's basically what we should expect. A significant number of mothers go around being worried about their children a lot of the time. If nothing bad happens, as it does most of the time, she forgets about the bad feeling. When something bad actually happens, once on a blue moon, as it's bound to, she remembers that she "sensed" this danger and it confirms her belief she has some sixth sense. My reply : That's not very strong argument, especially when the worried mother will successfully pick THAT day which her child have problem to have such "feeling". By Mad Kally Please explain how a TV or radio reads your mind. It sounds all too familiar to me, but not anything to do with psychic ability. Does the TV or radio say things to you? My reply : Did already in my first post (reply to Lobstrosity). Refer to that and ask questions if you don't understand. PS : Don't tell me that your mother accused you of being a mind-reading witch now after been accused of being possessed by a Demon. By JenniferD I think that is just more anecdotal evidence. Until the results can be duplicated in a test situation , under the scientific method, I still say that it is bogus. I can give you HUNDREDS of examples of times where my mom and I have "read each others' minds" but it is simply coincidence. The rest of my post, which you snipped off, explains a couple of the reasons I was able to reconcile my doubts on that issue. Jen My reply : And HOW do you propose they do that? By going around to some happy families and putting guns to their kids' head and see whether their mothers will rush back home to save their children? We are talking about life and death situation here and I don't see how you can duplicate that in a lab.

03-10-2003, 08:14 PM	#57
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	By Answerer I'm not fully certain myself. There are still lots of mysteries in the Quantum field that remain unresolved yet. But quantum entanglement may held the answer to our doubts. In quantum entanglement, two particles are behaved as though they are one and no matter how great their distances between them are, they are dependent on each other. My reply : They depend on each other for existance? Supporting each other by increase and decrease of energy fluctulations, I persume? Don't know why ... but that is the first thought (that and the image of a long, silver tape which connected to each other ... not sure the name of it but I had seen it once) appeared to my head when I read your post (a good one too). By Shadowy Man Yes, but we know exactly how this is done. It is done in a repeatable, measurable fashion. Anyone can set up a satellite dish and measure the transmission for themselves. Some people even charge other people to do that very experiment. If you are suggesting that mind-reading is performed in a similar way, then we should be able to measure the transmission of thoughts in a repeatable, measurable fashion. My question : What device do you use to measure brain activities which results in thoughts? I know doctors could tell when a person is having dreams by looking at REM (or was it Alpha) waves in the brain, but what about thoughts during awake and active state?

03-10-2003, 08:26 PM	#59
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	That was a cheap shot, but what else could I expect from you? Even my mom doesn't believe in psychics, mind reading, etc. I do believe I've found someone even more whacked out than her. My reply : Well ... good luck with whoever it is ... I asked if the TV was talking to you because that is a symptom of schizophrenia. I was curious and I was serious. My reply : No, the TV wasn't talking to me ... I was referring to TV when I stated how Mind reading could have worked.

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