Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roland · 05-04-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Who says Abraham is mythical? Can you prove that? Do you believe Methusela existed? If this were from any other book, you wouldn't have a problem with it. The ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found, which Abraham viewed, so why couldn't Abraham be real?

Not true at all. I doubt that many of the people mentioned in "The Iliad" and "The Odyssey" were real. So, no it isn't just a matter of believing all ancient figures are real except for those in the Bible. Perhaps the more accurate way of saying it is that Abraham etc. could be mythical.

As for Methuselah, I certainly do not believe that a man lived to be 969 years old. And, no, I also don't believe it when I see the Sumerians claiming their patriarchs lived into the tens of thousands of years. Some things just go against all common sense and experience. After all, which is easier? For a man to live to be 969 years old, or for someone to write that a man lived to be 969 years old? See, I just did the latter right now.

Viti · 05-04-2003, 05:38 PM

Quote:

The ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found, which Abraham viewed, so why couldn't Abraham be real?

Can you provide some links to this find and the methods use to determine the ruins were of Sodom and Gomorrah? And, even if the places existed, how is this any different than other myths that incorporate actual places and events with made up stories?

Abraham could have existed, or he could have been mythical like Zeus, or the stories could have been based on a real person like the King Arthur legends are possibly based on a war chief.

RED DAVE · 05-04-2003, 05:51 PM

I recently read a book written in the Sixties, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, by William Foxwell Albright, claiming that the earliest Hebrews were donkey caravanners on the routes between Egypt and Mesopatamia. I don't know the current status of this notion, but the case that he made was pretty solid

Anyone else know about this book?

RED DAVE

lpetrich · 05-04-2003, 06:44 PM

Dunno about that book, but the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has a feature that suggests that it is fictional. According to Devnet some months back, the names of the kings of those two towns, Bera and Birsha, are symbolic: "son of bad" and "son of mischief" in Hebrew.

Making their names something like that of Cruella De Vil in "101 Dalmatians"; she wants a Dalmatian-dog fur coat.

Roland · 05-04-2003, 06:54 PM

Also, doesn't the word "sodom" mean "scorched" in Hebrew?

If so, doesn't it seem strange that a community would name itself that BEFORE it was burned?

lpetrich · 05-04-2003, 07:19 PM

I agree. Gomorrah supposedly means something like "heap" and Zoar means "small". So it's something like:

Burntville ruled by Mr. Wicked
Rubbleheap ruled by Mr. Mischief

Spaz · 05-04-2003, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
I agree. Gomorrah supposedly means something like "heap" and Zoar means "small". So it's something like:

Burntville ruled by Mr. Wicked
Rubbleheap ruled by Mr. Mischief

lol, all the good stuff is lost in translation...

leonarde · 05-04-2003, 09:20 PM

I don't preclude the possiblility that a town could be renamed after the fact to reflect its ultimate fate but "heapville" or or "rubbleville" would fit ANY destroyed city, no matter how/when it was destroyed. "Scorchville" is a bit more problematic but my understanding is that there was (perhaps) a lot of seismic/volcanic activity in the area long before the "two cities of the plain" were destroyed. That volcanic activity may have involved flames shooting up from time to time. Indeed, given the time span of volcanic activity, if there's ANYTHING of history to the Sodom and Gomorrah story, the volcanic activity was probably going on BEFORE the city was founded/named.

Cheers!

leonarde · 05-04-2003, 09:28 PM

Here's some theory about the two cities and their location:

Quote:

To date there has been located only evidence for two of the five Cities of the Plain, but they are proposing that the evidence is strong that the two most important cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found. That being the evidences found of destruction by fire at each site due to the layers of ash found in the digs by archaeologists. Bab edh-Dhra ( Sodom ) is the largest of the two sites, the 7 meter wide (23 feet) city wall enclosed 9-10 acres with gates located at the west and the northeast. The northeast gate had two flanking towers with massive stone and timber foundations, possibly the gate in which Lot sat (Genesis 19:1). Estimated population at the time of the destruction was between 600-1200. There was a large cemetery at Bab edh-Dhra and pottery evidence indicates that some of the residents of Numeira (Gomorrah) buried their dead in this cemetery. It appears that Numeria was in existence for only a short time, possibly less than 100 years. Paleobotany investigations indicated that a rich diversity of crops were grown in the area including barley, wheat, grapes, figs, lintels, flax, chickpeas, peas, broad beans, dates, and olives.

Concerning the proposed cause of the destruction, they are proposing that it was the result of an earthquake that forced combustible material to the surface and into the atmosphere. Surveys have located bitumen, petroleum, natural gas and sulfur in the area. And to the east of the Dead Sea is a major fault line and these cities are located exactly on this fault line. See Fig 4 below.

Above from:
http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/sodom.html

Cheers!

leonarde · 05-04-2003, 11:19 PM

other claims are that the city/cities are at the bottom of the Dead Sea :
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032700.html

Another account of this:
http://www.antipas.org/news/news_200..._gomorrah.html

I never would have thought a theory about Sodom and Gomorrah
experimentally testable but one seems to be;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient...omorrah3.shtml

Cheers!

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05-04-2003, 05:51 PM	#13
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	I recently read a book written in the Sixties, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, by William Foxwell Albright, claiming that the earliest Hebrews were donkey caravanners on the routes between Egypt and Mesopatamia. I don't know the current status of this notion, but the case that he made was pretty solid Anyone else know about this book? RED DAVE

05-04-2003, 06:44 PM	#14
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Dunno about that book, but the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has a feature that suggests that it is fictional. According to Devnet some months back, the names of the kings of those two towns, Bera and Birsha, are symbolic: "son of bad" and "son of mischief" in Hebrew. Making their names something like that of Cruella De Vil in "101 Dalmatians"; she wants a Dalmatian-dog fur coat.

05-04-2003, 06:54 PM	#15
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	Also, doesn't the word "sodom" mean "scorched" in Hebrew? If so, doesn't it seem strange that a community would name itself that BEFORE it was burned?

05-04-2003, 07:19 PM	#16
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I agree. Gomorrah supposedly means something like "heap" and Zoar means "small". So it's something like: Burntville ruled by Mr. Wicked Rubbleheap ruled by Mr. Mischief

05-04-2003, 09:20 PM	#18
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	I don't preclude the possiblility that a town could be renamed after the fact to reflect its ultimate fate but "heapville" or or "rubbleville" would fit ANY destroyed city, no matter how/when it was destroyed. "Scorchville" is a bit more problematic but my understanding is that there was (perhaps) a lot of seismic/volcanic activity in the area long before the "two cities of the plain" were destroyed. That volcanic activity may have involved flames shooting up from time to time. Indeed, given the time span of volcanic activity, if there's ANYTHING of history to the Sodom and Gomorrah story, the volcanic activity was probably going on BEFORE the city was founded/named. Cheers!

05-04-2003, 11:19 PM	#20
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	other claims are that the city/cities are at the bottom of the Dead Sea : http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc032700.html Another account of this: http://www.antipas.org/news/news_200..._gomorrah.html I never would have thought a theory about Sodom and Gomorrah experimentally testable but one seems to be; http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient...omorrah3.shtml Cheers!

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