Viti

In another thread, Magus55 statedI have heard and seen this quite a bit...people think the Jews are the oldest race, or that they were always a separate people and that they were known to others. My assumption is that this belief is based on accepting the old testatment as a reasonably accurate historical/metaphorical writing, as I have heard this from non-literalists and even a fairly new non-believer.

From my reading though, this is not historically accurate...there wasn't always a separate group of people known as the Hebrews...it appears they emerged with a separate identity and belief system from the many peoples and civilizations of the fertile crescent.

Anyone else run into this? Christians, do you really believe that the Jews were always Jews?

Roland

I believe the first hard evidence for the existence of the Israelites is found on an Egyptian stele dated to around 1200 B.C.

Viti

So certainly not long before Ancient Greece...Magus55, care to back your statement?

lpetrich

It's a short reference alongside similar bragging about the conquering of some cities -- "Israel" may simply have been an ethnicity living in the hills, and not a well-defined nation.

Here is the full text on that stele.

(start)
Year 5, third month of the third season (eleventh month), third day, under the majesty of Horus: Mighty Bull, Rejoicing in Truth; King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Binre-Meriamon, Son of Re: Merneptah-Hotephirma, magnifying might, exalting victorious sword of Horus, Mighty Bull, smiter of the Nine Bows_[5], whose name is given forever and ever.

(lots and lots of bragging snipped)

The princes are prostrate, saying: "Mercy!"
Not one raises his head among the Nine Bows_[5].
Desolation is for Tehenu_[1]; Hatti_[2] is pacified;
Plundered is the Canaan with every evil;
Carried off is Ashkelon; seized upon is Gezer;
Yanoam is made as that which does not exist;
Isiral_[3] is laid waste, his seed is not;
Hurru_[4] is become a widow for Egypt!
All lands together, they are pacified;

[1] Tehenu: Libya
[2] Hatti: The kingdom of the Hittites in Anatolia
[3] Isiral: The consensus identifies this with the people of Israel, though doubts have been raised on various grounds.
[4] Hurru: Syria
[5] Nine bows: Nine peoples, the composition of the Nine Bows changed over the centuries, until they were finally identified with foreign peoples exclusively.

Roland

Thanks for the clarification, Ipetrich.

I in no way meant to imply that the Israelites were necessarily an organized nation at that point.

By the way, does anyone know what the oldest extant piece of Hebrew writing is? Did the Hebrews ever write on tablets like the Egyptians, Sumerians and others did?

Just curious.

lpetrich

The idea of a Messiah, however, emerged much later as a king who would lead the people of Israel to victory over their conquerors and oppressors, perhaps as early as the 7th century BCE. Here's an approximate timeline:

King Saul: 1020-1000 BCE
King David: 1000-961 BCE
King Solomon: 961-922 BCE
(these three are semilegendary figures; they likely ruled only the southern kingdom instead of both kingdoms)

Dual Monarchy:
Northern Kingdom of Ephraim
Southern Kingdom of Judah

The northern kingdom lasts from 922 BCE to 722 BCE; is conquered and partially deported by the Assyrians. The "Ten Lost Tribes" were likely assimilated into various populations elsewhere.

The southern kingdom survives the Assyrians' siege in 701; King Sennacherib brags about how King Hezekiah was like a "caged bird" in Jerusalem.

The southern kingdom is conquered by Babylon in 586 BCE; some of the population is deported. However, they escape being assimilated.

When Cyrus the Great conquers the Fertile Crescent in 538 BCE, he lets some exiles return and restore the southern kingdom as a province in his empire; various other exiles return in the next few decades.

Alexander the Great conquers the territory in 333 BCE. Of his successors, the Ptolemies rule it from Egypt around 300-200 BCE, and the Seleucids rule it from Syria around 200-167 BCE

The Maccabees revolt and last from 167 BCE to 63 BCE, expanding Judea, but it becomes a Roman client state.

The Romans directly rule starting 6 CE; a series of revolts from 66 CE to 135 CE fails to shake off Roman rule.

lpetrich

Roland:
By the way, does anyone know what the oldest extant piece of Hebrew writing is? Did the Hebrews ever write on tablets like the Egyptians, Sumerians and others did?

The oldest writing in Hebrew is the Gezer Calendar, writte on a limestone tablet at around 1000 BCE.

I'd have to do more searching to get more details, but according to Finkelstein and Silberman's The Bible Unearthed, literacy had become common in the reign of King Josiah, 640-609 BCE.

Magus55

Abraham was the first Jew (Hebrew). God made the convenant with him around 2000 B.C. Classical Ancient Greece didn't occur until around 500 B.C ( the time of greek civilization most people refer to ). The earliest that greek-speaking people migrated to the greek mainland is around 2000 B.C, but they didn't establish the Greek Empire for a long time.

lpetrich

Abraham is about as historical as Hercules, or maybe Achilles.

As to Greece, the first Greek-speakers arrived in mainland Greece at about 2000 BCE, and spread to Crete at 1500 BCE; they founded the Mycenaean city-states, which have a lot of surviving bookkeeping documents written in the Linear B script (1500-1200 BCE).

The Mycenaeans are vaguely remembered in Greek mythology; Mycenaean sites feature in it, and such technology as boar's-tusk helmets and bronze armor are remembered in the Iliad. So by the common apologist argument about the Gospel of Luke, "Look at all those places it mentions!", we must conclude that the deities of Mt. Olympus are real beings.

But around 1200 BCE, the palaces of the Mycenaean city-states were destroyed as part of the unrest and upheavals of the eastern Mediterranean, and with them went Linear B. Greece got a new system of writing from the Phoenicians a little before 700 BCE, which it has had ever since.

Magus55

Who says Abraham is mythical? Can you prove that? Do you believe Methusela existed? If this were from any other book, you wouldn't have a problem with it. The ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been found, which Abraham viewed, so why couldn't Abraham be real?