Calzaer

If God knew it was going to be the only shred of evidence we had for his existence, you'd think he'd've gone a bit further out of his way to make sure it didn't get incomprehensibly dated so quickly.

Secular Pinoy

Oh, did you receive that spam mail too, mark9950?

Cretinist

It should be evident to anyone reading this thread that you are just picking and choosing which translation suits you. In every other instance where GMt uses kosmos, it clearly refers to the whole world. (5:14, 13:35, 13:38, 16:26, 18:7, 24:21, 25:34, 26:13). If Matthew wanted to just specify Judea, why didn't he just say Judea, instead of kosmos?

mark9950

And he responded.

Vorkosigan

You know, on that other thread, you accused hardcore atheists of intellectual desperation. And then you pull bizarre crap like this....which only goes to show that irony is not yet dead.

Matt 4:8
NIV
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

NASB
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

NLT
Next the Devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him the nations of the world and all their glory.

KJV
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

ASV
Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

YLT
Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,

NetBible
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their grandeur.

Apparently, this translation error you accuse others of making is rather common, since all the translations make it. Moreover, your idiosyncratic translation makes no sense in light of the next verse:

NetBible
4:9 And he said to him, "I will give you all these things if you fall down and worship me."

Palestine is certainly great, but hardly an inducement to worship of Satan. No, the only interpretation that makes sense in light of the next verse is that "all the kingdoms of the world" is meant.

Vorkosigan

Jack the Bodiless

I notice that the author has entirely omitted Revelation, in which one-third of the stars in the sky get knocked off the Firmament dome and fall to Earth, before the dome is rolled up like a scroll...

Let me guess: a "vision".

Why do ALL the visions refer to the Hebrew flat-Earth cosmology (which we know all about from the Book of Enoch)?

And when, exactly, is anyone given a "vision" of all the kingdoms of the world without being on a high mountain, tree etc? God can't give anyone visions of the world under more mundane circumstances?

Furthermore, why would God deliberately deceive people in these visions? Why not let them see the roundness of the Earth? Other ancient peoples (e.g. the Greeks) knew about it.

jayh

Both ellipse and circle are flat 2 dimensional shapes, that's immaterial. It is telling that Isaiah failed to use the far more appropriate term for 'ball' as used in Isaiah 22:18.

Hawkingfan

None of this answers the problem. It doesn't matter if it was a vision or not. The passage clearly implies a flat earth, because you could not see a tree from the other side of a sphere even if its height was infinite. The *only* way the tree could be seen from everywhere on the earth would be if the earth was flat. And disregarding the tree completely, there is no such thing as an "end(s) of the earth". The earth has no end(s). If you walk and swim in any direction on the earth you will *never* reach "the end(s)".

The second point does not follow the first. The first statement says the reason they were on the mountain was to see all the kingdoms of the world. But then the second statement says that it was only a vision of all the kingdoms of the world. But then there would have been no need to go up to the mountain. You can have a vision anywhere. The vision theory is not supported by the text and does not make logical sense in the context of why they went up a mountain.

Vinnie

I checked out a few examples:

http://www.jcsm.org/SAB/examples.htm

Science has not proven the order of events? Take this CD filled with BS and flush it down the ol commode along with the SAB.

If the arguments consisting of hand waving, dismissing and prioritizing myths over modern science then I am going to call you close-minded and intellectually dishonest.

You cannot argue against science with apologetics like this. All you can do is embrace the finds or live your life in self-delusion.

Vinnie

CX

The line in question reads (cf. NA27 GMt 4:8):

Based on the lexicons I've consulted and my own minimal knowledge of Greek during the period I would say this should be rendered as:

...the kingdoms of the known world and their glory.

This usage is reasonably well attested. Thus in this case the genitive singular construction TOU KOSMOU probably does not refer to the entire planet, but the known/inhabited world.