sullster

Gemma says that the catholic church has done more good than any other organization. I disagree.

What the catholic church has defined as "good" is not necessarily a universal definition. The history of the church has shown that doing good is in line with its own accumulation of power and property. Just going around and helping people has been done here and there, but the needs of the institution have always come first.

During the late Middle Ages, the church sold indulgences and relics to credulous peasants in order to do "the good" of building the enormous Saint Peter's Bascillica in Rome. Here we see that a defined good, the vast church building, is justified by the underhanded means, the impoverishment of credulous peasants.

I feel that the institution of the catholic church cannot be seen as having done the most "good", because of the difficulties in absolutely defining the word and in the historical record of the istitutional selfishness of the church. The Good, is mostly what is good for the church.

If you are looking for an institution which has done the most good, if good is defined here as being healthy, then it would be the collection of scientists, universities and industries who created anti-biotics. The church never did anything to prevent human suffering, science has done just that.

Infinity Lover

Good?

Well there's Amie for starters. Love Amie.

There's Ale's brewn by trappist abbeys; love the Trappist ale!

...but seriously, there's positive value to be found in everything! Even if it's mistakes to learn from; those are valuable too.

It all boils down to the willingness to learn and ability to apply the right perspective, and not only wanting to see things in a negative light.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

Amie

This is a very good example of what Gemma was talking about in her first sentence.

Dr. Rick obviously you have familiarized yourself with bad examples but can you honestly say that you have put any effort into finding good examples within the Catholic church?

Infinity Lover

Gemma, I'm not informed enough to either agree or disagree with your statement as quoted in the o.p., but appearantly you have ample reason to make that assertion.

So giving a more elaborate list of examples shouldn't be too much of a problem I'm asuming...

Deistic Heretic

Now, I know this is not Catholic, but it should be looked upon the same alike the Catholics as the Muslims. I met an Algerian guy a month or two back online. I was asking him questions about Islam as all we learn in school is the Mecca stuff. If faith and belief were gold, this man would be wildly rich right now. He seemed very wise..
Anyway, all in all, I got down to asking him about Jesus and whether Islam believed in the whole miracle thing. He told me that 'Jesus and Mohammed didn't do the miracles themselves, God used their bodies to do the miracles for them'.
I am sure if I asked him he would say the same applied for the Saints, as he specifically said prophets (sorry, i can't remember word-by-word, it was a long time ago ) and, technically, the Saints were prophets themselves, just not from the OT. I think it is unfair for you to talk of such things without taking it into the full perspective.

Are there any muslims here? I would like to hear an input from an Islamic mind. I think no matter what creed or colour we are, we can learn from the philosophy of Abrahamic religions..

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Deistic Heretic ]</p>

Gemma Therese

I'd think long and hard about that statement, Sullster.

You are so well-versed on the negative aspects of Church history; do you care to enlighten us on the good points?

Gemma Therese

The Other Michael

I'd like Gemma to start off by first listing all the good that has been done in the world by the Catholic saints, and then list all the good that has been done in the world since time immemorial by all other organizations. This will let everyone make a reasoned evaluation of her proposition.

She should have all that information at her fingertips, otherwise she was at best, exaggerating when she made that statement, and at worst, she was making a barefaced lie.

Simply stated, put up or shut up.

cheers,
Michael

Amos

Nice, very nice. In America no Church can benefit the people which it is why it became a flat and cultureless society. To counter this they will boast about their war efforts and prove that it has culture!

The reason for this that it is a protestant nation which itself is not only cultureless but also clueless with regard to the understanding of human nature. One example of this is that a whole string of full fledged Phd's did a study on cockroaches to get a better grip on the social aspect of mating and fertility. They concluded that effeminate males are prefered by horny females and that bullies were not desirable in any society.

Gemma Therese

Why? Clearly, many atheists on this board have an extensive knowledge of Catholic history and doctrine.

Ask one of them.

Gemma Therese

Shadownought

I second that.