Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 12-24-2002, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:

The Catholic Church has in its midst saints who as a sum total have done more good for the world than any other organization.

Discuss.

lpetrich · 12-24-2002, 08:06 AM

Present-day would-be saints are, as I've pointed out elsewhere, miserable slouches by the standards of saints of previous centuries. Consider about Mother Teresa:

Did MT ever speak in several languages without having to learn them? (the Gift of Tongues)
Did MT ever calm any storms?
Did MT ever miraculously fill an empty oil can with oil?
Did MT ever miraculously recharge any batteries?
Did MT ever miraculously desalinate seawater?
Did MT ever point out any monster-containing trees?
Did a crab ever return a lost crucifix to MT?
Did MT ever cure blindness?
Did MT ever strike blind anyone who stole from her?
Did MT ever cause an earthquake in a town that had blasphemed her?

Mageth · 12-24-2002, 08:15 AM

As much as I hate to introduce Hitler to a topic, esp. so early, this reminds me of when I was working for a few months in Munich, Germany in the early '90s. One night at a restaurant, a German co-worker, in all sincerity, explained to me the many good things Hitler and Nazism had done for Germany that people overlook (the Autobahns, lowered unemployment, etc.)

Gemma Therese · 12-24-2002, 09:11 AM

What do either of these posts have to do with the good wrought by the Catholic Church??

Gemma Therese

Mageth · 12-24-2002, 09:12 AM

Umm, what does your post have to do with the "good" wrought by the Catholic church?

Gemma Therese · 12-24-2002, 09:57 AM

For starters, how about the convents and monestaries in Europe that hid Jews during the war?

Gemma Therese

Dr Rick · 12-24-2002, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
For starters, how about the convents and monestaries in Europe that hid Jews during the war?

How about the whole <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol1.htm" target="_blank">truth</a>?

How about <a href="http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/crusades.html#1crusade" target="_blank">the Crusades</a>

How about <a href="http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/inquisition.html" target="_blank">the medieval inquisitons</a>?

How about the <a href="http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/witchhunt.html" target="_blank">witch hunts</a>?

How about <a href="http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/spanish.html" target="_blank">the Spanish Inquisition</a>?

How about the <a href="http://www.flamemag.dircon.co.uk/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm" target="_blank">slaughter</a> of Serbs and Jews orchestrated by the clergy?

How about the <a href="http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tmanc.htm" target="_blank">Dark Ages</a>?

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Dr Rick ]

Amie · 12-24-2002, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
For starters, how about the convents and monestaries in Europe that hid Jews during the war?

Hi Gemma
I liked this example. I think there are many aspects that are positive and many people within the church who are good and there are many people who have been associated with the church who are good (Padre Pio seemed like a pretty cool guy). But on the flip side there are also many people who are damaging and destructive to the church...
The latest events do make it almost embarrasing for me to admit I am a catholic at times. Sometimes power can be in the hands of the wrong people and thats never a good thing...

Sam Pascoe once said "Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise."
I definitely agree with that last part...

Gemma Therese · 12-24-2002, 10:41 AM

The Church has good and bad. It seems most of the people on this board are blind to the good.

Remember we all live in history. We make judgements in the moment based on what we see and how we evaluate with the limitations of our faith and understanding. We can all rewrite history once we know the ending.

Amie, as one Catholic to another, please don't ever be ashamed of being Catholic! It is true that most people in the Church are sinful, but most of us are corrupt and broken to some measure, and we all need redemption. Just remember, we have in our Catholic lineage such saints as Therese of Lisieux, Edith Stein, and St. Francis.

God Bless!

Gemma Therese

Dr Rick · 12-24-2002, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
Just remember, we have in our Catholic lineage such saints as Therese of Lisieux, Edith Stein, and St. Francis.

...and Tomas de Torquemada, Queen Isabella, Pope Alexander VI, St. Bernard of Clauvauex, Pope Pius XII, Pope Innocent VII, Cardinal Bernie Law...

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12-24-2002, 08:06 AM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Present-day would-be saints are, as I've pointed out elsewhere, miserable slouches by the standards of saints of previous centuries. Consider about Mother Teresa: Did MT ever speak in several languages without having to learn them? (the Gift of Tongues) Did MT ever calm any storms? Did MT ever miraculously fill an empty oil can with oil? Did MT ever miraculously recharge any batteries? Did MT ever miraculously desalinate seawater? Did MT ever point out any monster-containing trees? Did a crab ever return a lost crucifix to MT? Did MT ever cure blindness? Did MT ever strike blind anyone who stole from her? Did MT ever cause an earthquake in a town that had blasphemed her?

12-24-2002, 08:15 AM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	As much as I hate to introduce Hitler to a topic, esp. so early, this reminds me of when I was working for a few months in Munich, Germany in the early '90s. One night at a restaurant, a German co-worker, in all sincerity, explained to me the many good things Hitler and Nazism had done for Germany that people overlook (the Autobahns, lowered unemployment, etc.)

12-24-2002, 09:11 AM	#4
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	What do either of these posts have to do with the good wrought by the Catholic Church?? Gemma Therese

12-24-2002, 09:12 AM	#5
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Umm, what does your post have to do with the "good" wrought by the Catholic church?

12-24-2002, 09:57 AM	#6
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	For starters, how about the convents and monestaries in Europe that hid Jews during the war? Gemma Therese

12-24-2002, 10:41 AM	#9
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	The Church has good and bad. It seems most of the people on this board are blind to the good. Remember we all live in history. We make judgements in the moment based on what we see and how we evaluate with the limitations of our faith and understanding. We can all rewrite history once we know the ending. Amie, as one Catholic to another, please don't ever be ashamed of being Catholic! It is true that most people in the Church are sinful, but most of us are corrupt and broken to some measure, and we all need redemption. Just remember, we have in our Catholic lineage such saints as Therese of Lisieux, Edith Stein, and St. Francis. God Bless! Gemma Therese

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