Freethought & Rationalism Archive

06-28-2002, 02:23 PM

I've experienced destruction and vandalism of private property relating directly towards my atheism. Would you label that as persecution? If not, what prey tell would you call it?

Spazmatic · 06-28-2002, 02:28 PM

Atheists are not, in any literal sense, persecuted. But, along that same token, nor is any group in the United States of America. The last group to be actually persecuted in what I believe is your definition (namely actual widespread acts of a criminal nature directed specifically because of a specific trait, in this case lack of religion) were post-emancipation African-Americans.

Now, if you consider the KKK's actions enough to be chalked up as persecution of African-Americans, then, yes, atheists are persecuted. If you consider the situation for African-Americans during the early civil rights movement as persecution, then yes, atheists are persecuted. If you believe widespread death threats and allowed bigotry is persecution, then yes, atheists are persecuted.

In fact, I can think of one, very similar historical situation to the present anti-atheist sentiment in the United States of America. Germany, pre-Holocaust. I'm not saying a similar event will occur, but the sentiment our government has helped cook up is very similar to what Hitler cooked up against the Jews. Worse yet, Christian leaders have gone even further. Let me make the comparison clear:

1) Jews were marked as not-human, or at least not really human.
Corollary) Many Christian leaders have marked atheists the same.

2) Jews were blamed for the problems Germany was having.
Corollary) Many Christian leaders have blamed atheists for Sept. 11 (only Falwell overtly, but others in less-obvious terms). Even our government, through its statements that we need more faith, has done so.

3) Jewish children were mocked, and often even subject to acts of violence.
Corollary) Atheist schoolchildren are often finding themselves shunned, even more than pre-9/11.

4) Widespread belief that the Jews should leave Germany, because they weren't the same.
Corollary) This one should be obvious. If not, read up on the death threats aimed at Newdow.

5) Widespread belief that Jews weren't really Germans/had other, greater motivations than their nation and as such were not to be trusted.
Corollary) Hmmm... Need we discuss this in the post-9/11, God = patriotism fervor?

Not to say that anything will come of this, but there are many comparisons to be made. Maybe this will make the Fundies understand how stupid they are being. But, to put it simply, yes, David, I would say there is something along the lines of persecution.

Typhon · 06-28-2002, 02:36 PM

For much of my life I have lived in a predominately white, Republican, Christian county. Folks around here are conservative, and tend towards violence and ignorance in deplorable combinations of these two lovely traits.

I have been an atheist since middle school, more or less, and have always had to defend my point of view from a rather hostile majority.

I have been told repeatedly, and with much hatred, that I am "not an American" because of my atheism.

My ex-fianc�'s family called me a devil worshiper (which is odd, since I don't believe in any devils either), and insisted that I couldn't be a moral person if I disbelieved in god. I was made unwelcome at their social functions, and this was partly a factor for the breakup of the relationship.

I've had the Darwin fish on the back of my car broken, vandalized, and torn off now four times. Once, an offensive pro-Christian sticker was left in its place.

I've had two companies where I worked, where I had to hide my atheism for fear of losing my job or being passed over for promotion. The worst of the two, had a workplace which was composed of 90% fundamentalist Christians, including the director of HR and the CEO. I had no idea of this until after I was hired and besides, it was good job with a sizable increase in pay from my last. I left however after 8 months, when I couldn't stand all the in-workplace jokes, comments about liberals, non-Christians, and minorities. I did not have the money, time, or interest in taking them to court, but I did not find it a comfortable or safe workplace.

I have been called a "commie faggot son of bitch" and an "atheist terrorist supporting mutherf*cker" and have had anti-abortionists rednecks threaten me with bodily harm outside a meeting of one of our local planned parenthood groups, after telling them that I was an atheist, and pro-choice.

99% of the time, my "un-belief" is effectively invisible to the general public. Outside of my Darwin fish (which really, has nothing to do with atheism anyway, many theists believe in evolution). Until I open my mouth, or am questioned, or put in a position where I have to refuse to take part in some religious ceremony (which happens more in private, social situations, but occasionally and more problematically in public or workplace events), it is very difficult for others to "persecute" me. They are not aware of my minority status as a non-theist. Once this is however discovered, I generally garner a variety of responses ranging from (rare) support, no interest, to (regretfully common) personal or public censure. Mostly this is in a form that just irritates me, rather than threatens me with bodily harm or fear for my life, liberty, and livelihood, but I consider myself simply lucky, in this regard.

It was a clear, chilling message, when our current President's daddy remarked during his election efforts in 1987, that he didn't think that atheists should even be considered citizens or patriots.

Outside of America thankfully, I've found little prejudice expressed against my non-belief, further proof to me that the Untied States is particularly intolerant and unacceptably religious for a supposedly "secular" state.

I don't even live in the "heartland" or "deep south" of the country. I dread to think how I would have been received if I lived somewhere other than Northern California.

.T.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

Polar Bear · 06-28-2002, 02:41 PM

Of course, all of this is NOTHING compared to the criminal persecution that Christians suffer in modern day America!

Buffman · 06-28-2002, 03:05 PM

Hello again, David. Welcome over from the EoG Forum.

Throughout my life I have not witnesses a single event of persecution directed at atheists or atheism.

Why don't you simply take a year off from your CoC endeavors and simply tell all your friends that you are now an atheist. I bet it wouldn't be all that long before you had all the witnessing/answers you ever wanted...or didn't want. Don't forget to tell your boss and extended family about your new enlightened awareness. Personally I think it would go a very long way in educating you about a good many things... especially reality. (We have had several folks profess to be atheists who have returned to the religious fold. Nothing to prevent you from doing the same...is there? In your own mind you would know that you weren't a true atheist and had never stopped loving your supernatural god.)

I have seen no evidence that the United States government persecuting atheists, nor do I know of any religious organizations which target atheists for persecution.

As I suggested above, until your skin is black, your body female, your religion Jew, or you admit to others that you are gay or a communist, I doubt that you will ever "see." let alone experience, any evidence that minorities, including atheists, are persecuted in the United States. How many atheists,other than Gus Hall, have ever run for, been elected to, or served in the government of the United States (or state and local governments), in the history of this country? I sincerely doubt it was because many weren't more than qualified to do so...and perform with, perhaps, even greater integrity, honor, ethical values, fairness and competence than those that have already served. One thing is for sure. An atheist would uphold the Constitution.)

With the greatest of sincerity,

Glen P. Goffin

Grumpy · 06-28-2002, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
Throughout my life I have not witnesses a single event of persecution directed at atheists or atheism.

I've got one for you. Just today, the AP reported that an automobile dealer in Yakima, WA plans to charge atheists $10,000 over the sticker price -- just to discourage them from doing business with him. (I'd start a separate thread on this story, except that I can't find it on the Web yet.)

The owner of Betterall Motors (sp?) says it's a reaction to the pledge ruling, an example of what he says is the driving of God out of public discourse. And he blames atheists.

I wonder when he'll ask customers about their belief in God. And whether he'll ask them if they agree with the 9th Circuit ruling or not (which would seem more relevant).

And I wonder if he'll waive the surcharge if atheists pay in pre-1956 "godless" currency (putting their money where their mouth is, so to speak).

Autonemesis · 06-28-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spazmatic:
The last group to be actually persecuted in what I believe is your definition (namely actual widespread acts of a criminal nature directed specifically because of a specific trait, in this case lack of religion) were post-emancipation African-Americans.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Stonewall/2878/index.html" target="_blank">Many</a> <a href="http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2000/03/14/pistol/" target="_blank">people</a> <a href="http://www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/ResearchResources/PressClips/news12_8_99.htm" target="_blank">would</a> <a href="http://www.hrc.org/newsreleases/1999/990305.asp" target="_blank">vigorously</a> <a href="http://www.ngltf.org/news/release.cfm?releaseID=183" target="_blank">disagree</a>, <a href="http://www.performative.com/hosts/hateCrimes/" target="_blank">including</a> <a href="http://www.hurricane.net/~wizard/0006.html" target="_blank"> me.</a>

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

GPLindsey · 06-28-2002, 05:24 PM

For those who said they live in States where atheists cannot run for public office--which States? The last article of the Constitution says that there shall be no religious test for an office of public trust in the U.S. Have the election laws in those States ever been challenged?

Of course atheists are persecuted, because they are dehumanized by the Christian majority. Atheists are committing the one unpardonable sin under the Bible--turning away from God after hearing the Good News. It is routine to hear people say that the non-religious are incapable of moral or ethical behavior, that they cannot be trusted to hold high office, etc. If a divorced couple were fighting for custody of their children in a courtroom, and one was an atheist and one a xian--don't you think that would enter into the debate? When has a politician openly professed his atheism, although many non-religious people have no doubt held office? We are the last openly shunned group in the country.

Atheist121 · 06-28-2002, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Of course, all of this is NOTHING compared to the criminal persecution that Christians suffer in modern day America!

Tell me about it. I think we need to get this guy a DC Talk album.

Buffman · 06-28-2002, 06:28 PM

GPLindsey

When has a politician openly professed his atheism, although many non-religious people have no doubt held office? We are the last openly shunned group in the country.

Thank you for the "heads up" assist. I should have included the word "openly" in my post. Although it might have been helpful if some of the non-theists had admitted their freethinking preference after leaving office.

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06-28-2002, 02:23 PM	#11
m.e.h. Guest Posts: n/a	I've experienced destruction and vandalism of private property relating directly towards my atheism. Would you label that as persecution? If not, what prey tell would you call it?

06-28-2002, 02:28 PM	#12
Spazmatic Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Washington Posts: 55	Atheists are not, in any literal sense, persecuted. But, along that same token, nor is any group in the United States of America. The last group to be actually persecuted in what I believe is your definition (namely actual widespread acts of a criminal nature directed specifically because of a specific trait, in this case lack of religion) were post-emancipation African-Americans. Now, if you consider the KKK's actions enough to be chalked up as persecution of African-Americans, then, yes, atheists are persecuted. If you consider the situation for African-Americans during the early civil rights movement as persecution, then yes, atheists are persecuted. If you believe widespread death threats and allowed bigotry is persecution, then yes, atheists are persecuted. In fact, I can think of one, very similar historical situation to the present anti-atheist sentiment in the United States of America. Germany, pre-Holocaust. I'm not saying a similar event will occur, but the sentiment our government has helped cook up is very similar to what Hitler cooked up against the Jews. Worse yet, Christian leaders have gone even further. Let me make the comparison clear: 1) Jews were marked as not-human, or at least not really human. Corollary) Many Christian leaders have marked atheists the same. 2) Jews were blamed for the problems Germany was having. Corollary) Many Christian leaders have blamed atheists for Sept. 11 (only Falwell overtly, but others in less-obvious terms). Even our government, through its statements that we need more faith, has done so. 3) Jewish children were mocked, and often even subject to acts of violence. Corollary) Atheist schoolchildren are often finding themselves shunned, even more than pre-9/11. 4) Widespread belief that the Jews should leave Germany, because they weren't the same. Corollary) This one should be obvious. If not, read up on the death threats aimed at Newdow. 5) Widespread belief that Jews weren't really Germans/had other, greater motivations than their nation and as such were not to be trusted. Corollary) Hmmm... Need we discuss this in the post-9/11, God = patriotism fervor? Not to say that anything will come of this, but there are many comparisons to be made. Maybe this will make the Fundies understand how stupid they are being. But, to put it simply, yes, David, I would say there is something along the lines of persecution.

06-28-2002, 02:36 PM	#13
Typhon Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mount Aetna Posts: 271	For much of my life I have lived in a predominately white, Republican, Christian county. Folks around here are conservative, and tend towards violence and ignorance in deplorable combinations of these two lovely traits. I have been an atheist since middle school, more or less, and have always had to defend my point of view from a rather hostile majority. I have been told repeatedly, and with much hatred, that I am "not an American" because of my atheism. My ex-fianc�'s family called me a devil worshiper (which is odd, since I don't believe in any devils either), and insisted that I couldn't be a moral person if I disbelieved in god. I was made unwelcome at their social functions, and this was partly a factor for the breakup of the relationship. I've had the Darwin fish on the back of my car broken, vandalized, and torn off now four times. Once, an offensive pro-Christian sticker was left in its place. I've had two companies where I worked, where I had to hide my atheism for fear of losing my job or being passed over for promotion. The worst of the two, had a workplace which was composed of 90% fundamentalist Christians, including the director of HR and the CEO. I had no idea of this until after I was hired and besides, it was good job with a sizable increase in pay from my last. I left however after 8 months, when I couldn't stand all the in-workplace jokes, comments about liberals, non-Christians, and minorities. I did not have the money, time, or interest in taking them to court, but I did not find it a comfortable or safe workplace. I have been called a "commie faggot son of bitch" and an "atheist terrorist supporting mutherf*cker" and have had anti-abortionists rednecks threaten me with bodily harm outside a meeting of one of our local planned parenthood groups, after telling them that I was an atheist, and pro-choice. 99% of the time, my "un-belief" is effectively invisible to the general public. Outside of my Darwin fish (which really, has nothing to do with atheism anyway, many theists believe in evolution). Until I open my mouth, or am questioned, or put in a position where I have to refuse to take part in some religious ceremony (which happens more in private, social situations, but occasionally and more problematically in public or workplace events), it is very difficult for others to "persecute" me. They are not aware of my minority status as a non-theist. Once this is however discovered, I generally garner a variety of responses ranging from (rare) support, no interest, to (regretfully common) personal or public censure. Mostly this is in a form that just irritates me, rather than threatens me with bodily harm or fear for my life, liberty, and livelihood, but I consider myself simply lucky, in this regard. It was a clear, chilling message, when our current President's daddy remarked during his election efforts in 1987, that he didn't think that atheists should even be considered citizens or patriots. Outside of America thankfully, I've found little prejudice expressed against my non-belief, further proof to me that the Untied States is particularly intolerant and unacceptably religious for a supposedly "secular" state. I don't even live in the "heartland" or "deep south" of the country. I dread to think how I would have been received if I lived somewhere other than Northern California. .T. [ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

06-28-2002, 02:41 PM	#14
Polar Bear Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 66	Of course, all of this is NOTHING compared to the criminal persecution that Christians suffer in modern day America! <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

06-28-2002, 03:05 PM	#15
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Hello again, David. Welcome over from the EoG Forum. Throughout my life I have not witnesses a single event of persecution directed at atheists or atheism. Why don't you simply take a year off from your CoC endeavors and simply tell all your friends that you are now an atheist. I bet it wouldn't be all that long before you had all the witnessing/answers you ever wanted...or didn't want. Don't forget to tell your boss and extended family about your new enlightened awareness. Personally I think it would go a very long way in educating you about a good many things... especially reality. (We have had several folks profess to be atheists who have returned to the religious fold. Nothing to prevent you from doing the same...is there? In your own mind you would know that you weren't a true atheist and had never stopped loving your supernatural god.) I have seen no evidence that the United States government persecuting atheists, nor do I know of any religious organizations which target atheists for persecution. As I suggested above, until your skin is black, your body female, your religion Jew, or you admit to others that you are gay or a communist, I doubt that you will ever "see." let alone experience, any evidence that minorities, including atheists, are persecuted in the United States. How many atheists,other than Gus Hall, have ever run for, been elected to, or served in the government of the United States (or state and local governments), in the history of this country? I sincerely doubt it was because many weren't more than qualified to do so...and perform with, perhaps, even greater integrity, honor, ethical values, fairness and competence than those that have already served. One thing is for sure. An atheist would uphold the Constitution.) With the greatest of sincerity, Glen P. Goffin

06-28-2002, 05:24 PM	#18
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	For those who said they live in States where atheists cannot run for public office--which States? The last article of the Constitution says that there shall be no religious test for an office of public trust in the U.S. Have the election laws in those States ever been challenged? Of course atheists are persecuted, because they are dehumanized by the Christian majority. Atheists are committing the one unpardonable sin under the Bible--turning away from God after hearing the Good News. It is routine to hear people say that the non-religious are incapable of moral or ethical behavior, that they cannot be trusted to hold high office, etc. If a divorced couple were fighting for custody of their children in a courtroom, and one was an atheist and one a xian--don't you think that would enter into the debate? When has a politician openly professed his atheism, although many non-religious people have no doubt held office? We are the last openly shunned group in the country.

06-28-2002, 06:28 PM	#20
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	GPLindsey When has a politician openly professed his atheism, although many non-religious people have no doubt held office? We are the last openly shunned group in the country. Thank you for the "heads up" assist. I should have included the word "openly" in my post. Although it might have been helpful if some of the non-theists had admitted their freethinking preference after leaving office.

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