brighid

How does one “lovingly hit” another person? Can a spouse hit his/her partner in an attempt to correct inappropriate behavior in a loving manner?

What has always struck me about the “loving” argument of spanking, hitting or abusive behavior is how this same argument is later used in domestic violence situations in adulthood! A common response abusers give to excuse and justify violent behavior is, “ I love you honey, you did something I disapproved of and therefore it is my right (as the stronger and bigger one) to hit you, or even beat you to teach you a lesson, or to correct your behavior.”

Do males and females, who come from homes where they were parented with an authoritative style of parenting (and who were rarely, if ever spanked) grow up to be domestic abusers, or domestically abused? Can the pervasive permissive and authoritarian styles of parenting be correlated to the attitude many people (especially some law enforcement and judicial agencies) have about domestic abuse? Spanking, hitting, paddling and the correlation that a loving parent or partner corrects, disciplines of punishes this way carries over into adult attitudes about domestic violence. If it’s okay to hit a child (not just a swat on the butt, or on the hand in an attempt to avoid a dangerous situation), why is it NOT OK to hit an adult in a similar manner? Would any parent whom uses spanking, hitting or paddling as a parenting tool spank (outside of mutually agreed upon sexual play between consenting adults) as a corrective tool in marriage? Why not?

Some info on parenting styles:

http://www.athealth.com/Practitioner...ingstyles.html

Authoritative Parenting and youth drug and other substance abuse:

http://www.drugabuse.gov/about/organ...ndings299.html

The “effectiveness” of spanking:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm

“The Family Research Laboratory of the University of New Hampshire conducted a large study involving over 3,000 mothers of 3 to 5 year old children during the late 1980's. The women were interviewed in 1986, 1988 and 1990. The found that 63% of the mothers had spanked their child at least once during the previous week. Among those that spanked, they hit their children a little over 3 times per week, on average. The researchers found that the children which were spanked the most as 3 to 5 year olds exhibited higher levels of anti-social behavior when observed 2 and 4 years later. This included higher levels of hitting siblings, hitting other children in school, defying parents and ignoring parental rules. Dr. Murray Straus, the co-director of the Laboratory noted how ironic it is that the behaviors for which parents spank children are liable to get worse as a result of the spanking.”

More ... http://www.yrfire.com/story/2002/7/26/12825/1029

" There are strong indications that spanking actually leads to increased misbehavior, increased aggression and hostility, reduced empathy and compassion for others, and increased likelihood of a wide variety of emotional and behavioral problems, such as low achievement, depression, patterns of victimization, drug abuse, child and spouse abuse, and suicide.(5) The evidence was strong enough to convince the American Academy of Pediatrics to condemn corporal punishment. As early as 1979, the nation of Sweden found the case against hitting children compelling enough to ban the practice by law; nine other nations have outlawed spanking since then. "

A more scholarly article: http://www.apa.org/journals/bul/pres...bul1284602.pdf

Page 605 : "It is important to now reiterate a statistical point: … the more often or more strongly children are corporally punished, the more likely they are to score statistically higher on select negative outcome measures. This does not mean, however, that every spanked child will experience outcome, only that the risk of doing so is higher with more corporal punishment than with less.



As to having no discipline because one does not spank, well … that is quite a flawed position. There are plenty of disciplinary techniques and preventative techniques parents can use to avert, alter and cease negative behavior. However they require a bit more work, patience and foresight then the immediate cessation spanking, hitting, paddling or other violent behaviors might induce. Redirection can be used to avert, loss of privileges after clear consequences have been previously given, additional chores or other work as a consequence, or best yet modeling the type of behavior you wish your child to exhibit as a way of teaching a child what is right, wrong and how to appropriately react to any given situation (are but a few.)

Parenting is not about immediate gratification, or the cessation of inappropriate behaviors. Parenting is about the long-term and overall development of the human being in ones cares. Parenting should be about helping develop psychological and physically capable and healthy adults who don’t need years of therapy to correct the problems a parenting style has left the child with. If ones goal is to produce a self-confident, socially well adjusted, mentally and physically healthy, self-reliant, capable adult child corporal punishment, (except the occasional light spanking) and other punitive and harmful parenting techniques should be eliminated from ones repertoire. Spanking (beyond the occasional) has been amply proven to be ineffective in producing happy, healthy, well adjusted children even if it is “effective” in temporarily stopping a behavior. If one must continually employ spanking to correct a repetitive behavior perhaps one should look to this as being ineffective, and perhaps try a different technique.

Brighid

nermal

First, using the general term "hit" in place of the specific term "spank" casts the debate in a disingenuous light. One does not lovingly "hit," but we're talking about spanking here.
Second, equating spanking with domestic violence against a spouse also adds nothing to the debate. It is non-sequitor. It is a straw man. You may as well equate "time-out" with an abuser locking his spouse in a celler while at work.

Again, you are making straw man arguments. Domestic abuse is bad. I agree. Abusing a child is bad. I agree. Stay on topic.

Yes, they do. All manner of people grow up to be abused and abusers.

I disagree, and your sources don't corroborate this, but we'll get to that.

Have you read this thread, or just the last post? This non-sequiter argument was addressed earlier.

Three times a week is too much. Spanking is a last resort when other disciplinary techniques have failed, or an immediate response when the child's misbehaviors put him in danger. As I have stated earlier in this thread (read it, it's a good discussion,) too frequent, or unnecessary application of spanking leads to bad behavior. The rest of your sources make the same mistake you do: assuming that since I spank my child, I must beat him in a regular basis. That's just not so.

What do you do when other techniques have failed? You put the child in time-out, and he gets down and bops his sister. You put him again, and he laughs at you and gets down. Lather, rinse, repeat.
At some point, as an enlightened, non-spanking parent, you might try physical restraint or "holding therapy," or some other such new age technique. You might lock the child in a room and let him scream himself stupid. You might even keep putting him back in time-out endlessly, playing his game, hoping to wear him down.
Some parents never face this issue. Their kids are naturally obedient or easy going. My child is a normal stubborn red-headed boy. I occassionally (rarely) have to show him I am the parent, and someone to be reckoned with. That, I see as my duty to him.

Agreed. But parent is also about teaching that behaviors have consequences, a practice sorely lacking in my experience. I know adults who have yet to learn the connection between actions and consequences. The first place I look for an explanation is to the parents.

Ed

yelyos

What sort of benefit does a child gain by obeyng an adult? Why is such obediance necessary?

nermal

Wow! Are you serious?

Let's start at the beginning. Children aren't born with wisdom. That comes from experience. You can find much more information about that on other threads.
The ability to comprehend and appreciate abstract concepts like "best interest" and "safe" are beyond young children. They cannot grasp such concepts as "if you don't develop good brushing habits, you will not have healthy teeth later in life;" and "A steady diet of ice cream and candy and soda pop does not help a growing body;" and "If you don't look before crossing the street, you may be flattened by a car." There are literally thousands and thousands of examples of these.

So, now we have the groundwork.

Adults, ostensibly, can grasp such complex abstracts. As an adult, and as a father, I am responsible for seeing to it that my child acts according to limitations imposed by complex concepts as safety and best interest even though he doesn't understand them.

The idea is, and here's the kicker, that by acting in his best interest at my direction, he will accomplish two primary goals:

1. He will live long enough to grow into a healthy adult and acquire wisdom of his own.

2. He will develop habits which, even after he comprehends them, will serve him well to keep him healthy through a long adult life.

Ed

brighid

Ed

EXCUSE ME! Could you please point out where I said *YOU* spank your child and therefore you must beat him on a regular basis, or for that fact ANYONE who spanks their child falls into this category??? Perhaps you did not read what I posted sir and I made specific exception for the danger argument, as well as infrequent spanking (as do the sources I posted.)

The fact remains that some parents don't spank infrequently, and this is what my post and the articles address. Spanking, infrequently and in dangerous situations can be effective, but spanking, hitting (as a seperate item and why it has been seperated by a comma) and OTHER violent behavior (which spanking CAN be when used frequently, out of anger and frustration and NOT as a tool to stop a behavior) DO lead SOME children down the road of abuser and domestic victim.

Brighid

beth

I have a question: what should a mother do when her ten year old punches her?

I hardly ever spanked (maybe twelve times in his life)and never beat my child, but my son attacked me, started punching me,and bruised up my arm(he's very strong and tall for his age)because I took his PS2 away as punishment. I took him over my knee and I started to spank and spank and spank. I wanted him to know that he will experience great pain if he ever does anything like that to me again. I did tell one of my neighbors what happened, because he's a deputy, and he said he had a belt that would have been perfect for the job.

brighid

I'll give you my personal opinion and you can do with it what you wish. First you need to ask yourself why your child would use violence as a response to a situation like this? Do you have other children and do you spank them? Although you may have only spanked him 12 times in his 10 years, the spanking you have done to the other children also sends a message that may cause harm to a child, or justify in his mind that violence is an acceptable response to a situation.

I have a 9 year old son who will be 10 soon, whom I have spanked perhaps twice in his life, both during times when he was about two or three and it involved dangerous situations. He has had things similar to a PS2 taken away and never in a million years would he think of striking me. He never has and I hope he never will. I personally refuse to use violence in my home, either verbally or physically because I grew up in a home where the "belt" was taken out to give us a few good "licks", verbal abuse was regularly employed and other such things.

My sister uses spanking as a parental tool and verbal abuse (such as swearing at her children, her husband, and having rather verbally violent fights in front of and with the children.) Her 7 and 9 year old have hit her, told her things like "fuck off", etc. They get "spankings" when they do these things.

What lesson do you actually think you taught your son by spanking him repeatedly for having used similar violence on you? It may have taught him to do things to avoid pain, but it likely did not teach him how to properly control his anger and displays of it, or how to handle similar situations in the future.

I personally would not have hit him back, because I believe that punishing a child with violence after he has employed it does not teach him that it isn't OK to hit. I feel it teaches a child that it is OK to hit if you are bigger and stronger. I would have likely restrained him, increased the time he would be without his PS2, as well as removed other privileges and perhaps told him that hitting another person might likely land him with a suspension in school (if done on school grounds), or even criminal consequences. We would have discussed why it was wrong and why it won't be tolerated in our home. But it would be exceedingly difficult to teach him the value of that lesson if I in turn hit him.

As a child I would ask my father why was it okay for him to hit me, if it wasn't okay for me to hit someone else? Because I am your father and it is my right .... As a child I interalized a lot of anger, resentment and distrust for my parents. My brother and sister had similar feelings but they manifested in more violent and destructive ways. There was a lot of physical violence in my home, beyond spanking, that took place between siblings. Eventually when my brother got too big to spank the violence escalated. Both my brother and sister used drugs and alcohol to escape. My brother also engaged in criminal activity ... we became increasingly more difficult to control ... a very predictable cycle of response and rebellion if any of the research is correct. This is not to say that your child or children are on this path, but it is something to mindful of in my opinion.

There are real reasons why children do the things they do. The learn what they live, and the first and most difficult place a parent must look when bad behavior arises is to himself or herself. What are you doing, or have done to reinforce negative behaviors? Have your techniques really worked to stop, not just temporarily, but for the long-term negative behaviors. I realize that lessons often must be repeated, but is your discipline or punishment teaching your child a) why exactly his action was wrong b) how to solve the problem in the future to avoid those situations (personal responsibility) c) and your expectations of him in the future d) the consequences (that must be fair and balanced) for any future trangressions ...

Personally, I have never wanted my child to fear I was going to harm him, but to learn there are consequences and he is responsible for his actions. I know the destruction the fear of physical pain and violence does to the child's psyche, self-esteem and ability to trust later in life. I and my siblings are the living legacy of that. Although I wasn't spanked or "beat" on a regular basis, the times were severe enough and unjust in their application that real damage was done. I felt my parents were hypocrits for hitting, spanking, or even sometimes beating us after we faught with one another.

Therefore I have chosen a different method of parenting. In my particular case, with my particular child, including being the single parent living in very impovershed conditions for half of his life, battling his abusive father, etc. and managed to raise a well mannered, happy, healthy, intelligent, self-confident child who does well in school, is well liked by his peers, teachers and parents and whom I have very, very few problems with behaviorly. I knew if I took a different course the likelihood of having more serious problems down, some like you have described. His father hit him once, and the impression that has left on him is lingering, significant and painful.

Here is an article you might find helpful. It discusses 10 alternatives to spanking:

http://www.parentsoup.com/experts/be...554700,00.html

There is a discipline link at the bottom of the page that might be helpful as well.

Also - 50 discipline techniques (many of which I regularly use) http://www.childadvocate.org/2e.htm


I am not expert on being a parent, but I am regularly asked by family and friends what is it that I do to get my son to behave so well? I have even had a group of mom's ask if I would be interested in setting up a daycare for their children because they need help and want their children to behave as my son does. My son's behavior is markedly different then his counsins who are spanked, and to me that says a lot and for me the proof is in the pudding so to speak. I don't have aggression problems with my son, he is rarely disrespectful and never swears or hits in anger, he knows right from wrong and is able to clearly atriculate it, and when he does experience behavior problems we are able to correct it without ever hitting, or spanking but by employing authoritative parenting techniques. Therefore I feel I have something positive and constructive to contribute to this discussion.

I hope that helps and I hope you don't feel my story, opinions or suggestions are meant to pass judgment on any parent, yourself included. I simply do not feel spanking is effective, and I feel the research supports that, as well as my own parenting experiences.

Brighid

beth

Thanks, Brigid. I am not happy about my actions at all. In fact, I cried for two days about it and I have apologized to my son over it. We have discussed the situation. I hope he never tries anything like that again. From what I gather, there was a disturbance at school. He came home in a very bad mood over it and was punished for his mouth. He also has seen conflict in the home (although I try very hard to conceal it), and he has seen his father going through anxiety attacks that we first thought were heart attacks. The situations in which I spanked previously were over life-threatening issues.

brighid

Blondegoddess,

It sounds like both of you had a very rough day, and perhaps both of you needed a time out (that was meant to make you laugh!) I think parenting is probably THEE toughest job any person can undertake. Every child is unique and as they say, they don’t come with an easy instruction manual. I have found personal success with the techniques I mentioned and I really do hope they can help you and any one else reading. No doubt you love your family very much

A Mom’s night out might even be required! No children, no husband, no demands except perhaps to laugh, and eat some seriously delicious but horribly fattening food … perhaps even a Margarita or a glass of wine if permissible. Oh and one of the requirements for Mom's night out is that NONE of the food has any caloric value, even if in reality it does.

Brighid

nermal

You never said I specifically spank my child, but you did make the general assumption, as I read it, that spanking is in the same category as beating. This is what I was referring to:

emphasis added

If you make the general case that spanking is equated with child abuse and beating, then I can reasonably assume that, since I spank my child, you mean me as well.

And yes, I saw the or abusive... in that sentence, but as you placed it in a list of negatives, with equal rationale and equal outcome, basic grammatical principles indicate that you equated them. For example, if I said:

"Beating or kicking your dog is a bad practice; you should stop." And you said:
"I don't kick my dog!"
Could I rightly reply: "Well, I never accused you of "kicking" your dog specifically."
Does that change the context of the discussion significantly? At all?
No.


Ed