Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-02-2002, 08:43 AM

Suppose I went up to my girlfriend and said "Hi, honey! How was your day? Look, there's this girl who's been hitting on me, and I'd like to sleep with her. Is that ok?" The answer would probably not be favorable. In fact, the identity of my girlfriend don't seem to matter; nearly any woman (or man!) would have the same unfavorable reaction.

Now, for Christians, I could understand that. They have a big book and a mean sky fairy telling them that it's wrong. But why is it similarly ingrained in the ethical cannon of atheists?

Given:
(1) There are no double standards in the relationship (i.e., if I can sleep with other people, you can too)
(2) All sex outside the central relationship is safe sex with two independant disease and/or birth prevention methods in place
(3) There's no lying or sneaking
(4) "Sex" and "love" have very little to do with each other (<-yes, that's debatable, I know)

Why do most people, even those who tend to base their ethics on objective logical reasoning, consider this behavior immoral?

Pomp · 12-02-2002, 08:58 AM

Assuming that both parties are amenable to the arrangement, and are honest to each other and to anyone they sleep with, I don't think that many non-moral-absolutists would find their behavior immoral at all. I think the issue is that most instances of "sleeping around" are not part of an agreement between all the relevant parties, but involve some form of deception or false expectations.

Jamie_L · 12-02-2002, 08:58 AM

I think you are confusing what people want with what people think is immoral.

If my wife walked up to me and said she was going to cook anchovie tarts for desert tonight, my response would not be favorable. That does not mean that I think anchovie tarts are immoral. I just don't think I'd like them.

I think most people like monogomous relationships. Why? I don't know. Socialization? Genetics? A little of both, probably.

You point 4 is not just debatable, it varies from person to person. That, I think, is the root of your dilemma. Some people just can't or don't want to separate sex from love. Bully for them. It's their preference, and they're welcome to it. It has nothing to do with morality.

I don't think very many people who base their morality on objective logical reasoning would find your scenario immoral. No one is being hurt. In fact, I would argue that anyone who feels your scenario is immoral is not basing their morality on objective logical reasoning at all.

Of course, many logical people may prefer monogamy, but that is not the same as thinking having multiple sex partners is immoral.

Jamie

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

Vesica · 12-02-2002, 09:04 AM

Per the other posters here, I too think this is a question of accepting something not thinking it immoral. As for why so many find such activity non-desirable....I think your Given #2 is unrealistic....We are talking about protection during all forms of sex and ignoring the possibility of contracting something like herpes (the cold sore variety) orally...not to mention the possibility of contracting other things through mouth to mouth contact, even something as 'benign' as mono.

Also, I think trust is a big part of why this does not happen more often. Both partners wold need to be completly confident that the other would never get caught up in the 'heat of the moment' and that they would be honest about any failures of thier protection methods. (As well as being willing to abstain for a period after a failure while lab tests are performed...)

brighid · 12-02-2002, 09:16 AM

Well, it is not wrong per say. I can think of a number of exceptions that generally accompany infidelity and the most notable is the secrecy and the lying about the �extra� relationship. Most relationships, unless otherwise specified are held to be monogamous and any breech of the agreement is wrong whether it is having sex with another partner, or it violates another tenant of that agreement. If you approach your GF and say, �Honey, I am really attracted to this chick in my office and I would like your permission to have sex with her� she has the right to say NO. If you tell her that you are going to have sex with this chick regardless of her feelings she has the right to express her disapproval and leave you, especially if the conditions of the relationship were based upon emotional or sexual fidelity.

Now if both of you agree that it is alright to have sexual partners outside of the immediate relationship and put conditions on those occurrences such as say � you must notify the other, safe sex must always be practiced, and failure to notify or use safe sexual practices nullifies the contract and said violator finds him or herself removed from the equation, or any such variance.

I personally don�t find it moral or immoral for consenting adults to have sex with one another. I do find it immoral to break an agreement of fidelity, or lying in order to obtain or maintain a relationship sexual or otherwise. I do not want my husband engaging in sex with other women because of the deeply emotional and intimate relationship he and I have cultivated. If we both decided to change that it would no longer be an issue. Sexually transmitted diseases as being an important factor in that decision as well as our mutually agreed upon needs in the emotional and physical intimacy departments.

Certainly, some of the compunction people feel about multiple sex partners even within a committed relationship stems from some theistic moral influence, but even as a secular individual I don�t think most people have been raised to accept sex as a totally casual interaction between two human beings. We see it as something more emotionally connected and in this case restricted. I am not sure if that is a bad thing necessarily.

If your GF tells you she isn�t into that sort of things and wouldn�t feel comfortable having sex with someone who is sleeping with other women then if you value the relationship you would hypothetically chose to honor her needs and attempt to have those sexual desires fulfilled within the relationship.

Brighid

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-02-2002, 11:41 AM

Ok... thanks to your responses, I think I can more precisely redefine the question.

Why do most people prefer monogamy, even outside of religious doctrine?

If Given #2 is indeed as impractical as Vesica says, then that would be one good reason. However, I tend to get the impression that even if there were no such thing as STDs or unwanted pregnancy, most people would still prefer monogamy.

Pseudonymph · 12-02-2002, 11:51 AM

Chipmunk...I actually have a lot of the same questions you do.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000367" target="_blank">Here</a> is a thread I started kind of along the same lines.

I love sex, and can't imagine why people insist on being monogomous. But I deal with it, for the sake of being in a happy relationship, so I don't complain too much.

brighid · 12-02-2002, 12:04 PM

Why do I prefer monogamy?

Well one very important issue is sexual health and sexually transmitted diseases. I am simply not interested in getting either a life-threatening one, an incurable, but not life threatening one, or simply one that can be cleared up with a nice antibiotic. Condoms simply don�t prevent ALL sexually transmitted diseases and I believe chlamydia and HPV can be contracted simply by contact with genital skin. I personally take comfort knowing I don�t have to worry about those sorts of things in my marriage and hopefully infidelity won�t be an issue for us.

There is a huge trust and vulnerability factor inherent in sex, at least with me. I don�t enjoy sharing it with people who don�t have my best emotional and physical interests at heart. Chalk that up to a few bad experiences that taught me valuable lessons. My husband and I have clearly defined our emotional and sexual needs, what each of us is willing and unwilling to do for the other and monogamy is high on that list. It is high on that list because of the emotional nature of our relationship. If we mutually decided that something else would be acceptable then that might be another story. We both know, from our own past experiences that infidelity is very harmful to a relationship as we have both been cheated on.

I can certainly conceive of situations where mutually agreed upon �extra� sexual encounters would possibly be okay with in the context of certain relationships, we have both simply admitted that we just aren�t one of those couples. I don�t really know what to chalk that up to other then personal preference. Maybe it is the vestiges of our theism, but I am simply uncomfortable with the thought of my husband sexually enjoying another person. Our emotional investment is substantial and it's more important to honor that then to have sex with other people, especially since we are both willing to indulge each others fantasies.

Brighid

Mad Kally · 12-02-2002, 12:06 PM

Why do most people prefer monogamy, even outside of religious doctrine?

I would love to have three or four husbands. Marriage for legal reasons only.

Jamie_L · 12-02-2002, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Living Dead Chipmunk:
Why do most people prefer monogamy, even outside of religious doctrine?

Okay. That's a much less loaded question, but also probably more complicated to answer.

Generally, I think people seek steady romantic relationships because they want a certain type of companionship. I think typically people are seeking intimacy, stability, support, and security (all in an emotional sense). In order to achieve emotional stability, and a sense of reliable emotional support, the person in question has to have some assurance that the other person (or people) in the relationship will be there when they are needed for these things.

That's where monogamy comes in, I think. People don't want to worry about whether or not their emotional support will disappear because the other person has decided to move on to a different emotional partner (or set of partners). Sexual activity is intimate. In many people it creates emotional intimacy. It is quite common for a person who is having regular sex with someone else to develop an intimate bond with that person. It is not uncommon for a person who develops an emotional bond with one person to also see a loosening of the bond(s) held with another person or people.

In short, monogamy feels more stable, and emotional stability is what most people want out of a relationship. Even if the other party assures the person that they will not drift apart due to the other sex, the person may just not want to worry about that.

On another note, some people obviously enjoy linking their emotions to sex. They enjoy making sex more than just another physical act among friends. The exclusiveness is an added statement of commitment. It says, I value you so much that I will do this only with you. Relationships are also about feeling valued. So, there's another reason some people like monogamy. It makes them feel more valued. More special.

Lastly, if we're talking about people looking for mates to have kids with, there's a whole extra set of issues that tend to push people towards monogamy. Since that doesn't seem to be where you're at, there's no need to elaborate. However, it's worth noting that even in early stages of dating, some people are thinking about those things in the backs of their minds.

Jamie

12-02-2002, 08:43 AM	#1
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	In general, why is sleeping around a Bad Thing(tm)? Suppose I went up to my girlfriend and said "Hi, honey! How was your day? Look, there's this girl who's been hitting on me, and I'd like to sleep with her. Is that ok?" The answer would probably not be favorable. In fact, the identity of my girlfriend don't seem to matter; nearly any woman (or man!) would have the same unfavorable reaction. Now, for Christians, I could understand that. They have a big book and a mean sky fairy telling them that it's wrong. But why is it similarly ingrained in the ethical cannon of atheists? Given: (1) There are no double standards in the relationship (i.e., if I can sleep with other people, you can too) (2) All sex outside the central relationship is safe sex with two independant disease and/or birth prevention methods in place (3) There's no lying or sneaking (4) "Sex" and "love" have very little to do with each other (<-yes, that's debatable, I know) Why do most people, even those who tend to base their ethics on objective logical reasoning, consider this behavior immoral?

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12-02-2002, 08:58 AM	#2
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Assuming that both parties are amenable to the arrangement, and are honest to each other and to anyone they sleep with, I don't think that many non-moral-absolutists would find their behavior immoral at all. I think the issue is that most instances of "sleeping around" are not part of an agreement between all the relevant parties, but involve some form of deception or false expectations.

12-02-2002, 08:58 AM	#3
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I think you are confusing what people want with what people think is immoral. If my wife walked up to me and said she was going to cook anchovie tarts for desert tonight, my response would not be favorable. That does not mean that I think anchovie tarts are immoral. I just don't think I'd like them. I think most people like monogomous relationships. Why? I don't know. Socialization? Genetics? A little of both, probably. You point 4 is not just debatable, it varies from person to person. That, I think, is the root of your dilemma. Some people just can't or don't want to separate sex from love. Bully for them. It's their preference, and they're welcome to it. It has nothing to do with morality. I don't think very many people who base their morality on objective logical reasoning would find your scenario immoral. No one is being hurt. In fact, I would argue that anyone who feels your scenario is immoral is not basing their morality on objective logical reasoning at all. Of course, many logical people may prefer monogamy, but that is not the same as thinking having multiple sex partners is immoral. Jamie [ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

12-02-2002, 09:04 AM	#4
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	Per the other posters here, I too think this is a question of accepting something not thinking it immoral. As for why so many find such activity non-desirable....I think your Given #2 is unrealistic....We are talking about protection during all forms of sex and ignoring the possibility of contracting something like herpes (the cold sore variety) orally...not to mention the possibility of contracting other things through mouth to mouth contact, even something as 'benign' as mono. Also, I think trust is a big part of why this does not happen more often. Both partners wold need to be completly confident that the other would never get caught up in the 'heat of the moment' and that they would be honest about any failures of thier protection methods. (As well as being willing to abstain for a period after a failure while lab tests are performed...)

12-02-2002, 09:16 AM	#5
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Well, it is not wrong per say. I can think of a number of exceptions that generally accompany infidelity and the most notable is the secrecy and the lying about the �extra� relationship. Most relationships, unless otherwise specified are held to be monogamous and any breech of the agreement is wrong whether it is having sex with another partner, or it violates another tenant of that agreement. If you approach your GF and say, �Honey, I am really attracted to this chick in my office and I would like your permission to have sex with her� she has the right to say NO. If you tell her that you are going to have sex with this chick regardless of her feelings she has the right to express her disapproval and leave you, especially if the conditions of the relationship were based upon emotional or sexual fidelity. Now if both of you agree that it is alright to have sexual partners outside of the immediate relationship and put conditions on those occurrences such as say � you must notify the other, safe sex must always be practiced, and failure to notify or use safe sexual practices nullifies the contract and said violator finds him or herself removed from the equation, or any such variance. I personally don�t find it moral or immoral for consenting adults to have sex with one another. I do find it immoral to break an agreement of fidelity, or lying in order to obtain or maintain a relationship sexual or otherwise. I do not want my husband engaging in sex with other women because of the deeply emotional and intimate relationship he and I have cultivated. If we both decided to change that it would no longer be an issue. Sexually transmitted diseases as being an important factor in that decision as well as our mutually agreed upon needs in the emotional and physical intimacy departments. Certainly, some of the compunction people feel about multiple sex partners even within a committed relationship stems from some theistic moral influence, but even as a secular individual I don�t think most people have been raised to accept sex as a totally casual interaction between two human beings. We see it as something more emotionally connected and in this case restricted. I am not sure if that is a bad thing necessarily. If your GF tells you she isn�t into that sort of things and wouldn�t feel comfortable having sex with someone who is sleeping with other women then if you value the relationship you would hypothetically chose to honor her needs and attempt to have those sexual desires fulfilled within the relationship. Brighid

12-02-2002, 11:41 AM	#6
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	Ok... thanks to your responses, I think I can more precisely redefine the question. Why do most people prefer monogamy, even outside of religious doctrine? If Given #2 is indeed as impractical as Vesica says, then that would be one good reason. However, I tend to get the impression that even if there were no such thing as STDs or unwanted pregnancy, most people would still prefer monogamy.

12-02-2002, 11:51 AM	#7
Pseudonymph Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 813	Chipmunk...I actually have a lot of the same questions you do. <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000367" target="_blank">Here</a> is a thread I started kind of along the same lines. I love sex, and can't imagine why people insist on being monogomous. But I deal with it, for the sake of being in a happy relationship, so I don't complain too much.

12-02-2002, 12:04 PM	#8
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Why do I prefer monogamy? Well one very important issue is sexual health and sexually transmitted diseases. I am simply not interested in getting either a life-threatening one, an incurable, but not life threatening one, or simply one that can be cleared up with a nice antibiotic. Condoms simply don�t prevent ALL sexually transmitted diseases and I believe chlamydia and HPV can be contracted simply by contact with genital skin. I personally take comfort knowing I don�t have to worry about those sorts of things in my marriage and hopefully infidelity won�t be an issue for us. There is a huge trust and vulnerability factor inherent in sex, at least with me. I don�t enjoy sharing it with people who don�t have my best emotional and physical interests at heart. Chalk that up to a few bad experiences that taught me valuable lessons. My husband and I have clearly defined our emotional and sexual needs, what each of us is willing and unwilling to do for the other and monogamy is high on that list. It is high on that list because of the emotional nature of our relationship. If we mutually decided that something else would be acceptable then that might be another story. We both know, from our own past experiences that infidelity is very harmful to a relationship as we have both been cheated on. I can certainly conceive of situations where mutually agreed upon �extra� sexual encounters would possibly be okay with in the context of certain relationships, we have both simply admitted that we just aren�t one of those couples. I don�t really know what to chalk that up to other then personal preference. Maybe it is the vestiges of our theism, but I am simply uncomfortable with the thought of my husband sexually enjoying another person. Our emotional investment is substantial and it's more important to honor that then to have sex with other people, especially since we are both willing to indulge each others fantasies. Brighid

12-02-2002, 12:06 PM	#9
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Why do most people prefer monogamy, even outside of religious doctrine? I would love to have three or four husbands. Marriage for legal reasons only.

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