Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Calzaer · 05-02-2003, 08:04 AM

Something I've never understood, and maybe you can help me, being a Messianic Jew.

Why were Christians so mad at Hitler? He was only doing to the Jews what they believe God is going to do to them anyway, right?

~Cal

Calzaer · 05-02-2003, 08:05 AM

Oops, meant to post this in GRD. My bad.

Calzaer · 05-02-2003, 09:58 AM

No thoughts on this one? *sigh* Yet another question that will forever remain unanswered.

christ-on-a-stick · 05-02-2003, 10:12 AM

Hi Calzaer,

I actually started a similar topic not too long ago and got a little bit of discussion...

Baidarka · 05-02-2003, 02:02 PM

A little while ago I too tried to draw Magus into a discussion about anti-Judaism and the NT http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=49787 . Magus kept calling himself a Messianic Jew so I thought that he would welcome an opportunity to explain some of the most egregious examples of NT anti-Jewish vitriol. He said �hello� but he ducked the issue. He seems to have stopped using the term Messianic Jew so as not to draw fire over this topic. I hope that you have more luck than I did.
In 1898 Dr. Fridtjof Nansen published his book Eskimo Life. Chapter XIV is titled The Introduction of Christianity.

Here is a quote from that Chapter. The story is quoted from another book by a Christian Missionary named Paul Egede

�A girl was beaten by her priest, �because she could not believe that God was so cruel as he represented him to be; he had said that all her forefathers were with Tornarssuk, and were to be tortured for eternity, because they did not know God.� She tried to defend them by suggesting that they knew no better, whereupon he lost his temper; and when she at last said � that it was horrible for her to learn that God was so terribly angry with those who sinned that he could never forgive them, as even wicked men will sometimes do,� he gave her a beating.�

I posted this little story before but I thought it was relevant to this discussion, in that it shows the extreme cruelty inherent in the Christian fantasy.
I�m not so sure that I agree with the premise that is implied in the question, �Why were Christians so mad at Hitler?� Ever hear of Father Charles Coughlin, the American Bund, the KKK. or Charles Lindberg? None of these Christians were particularly mad at Hitler. There were Christians who were decent people and were �so mad at Hitler� but I don�t think we can credit this sort of decency to all Christians.

ReasonableDoubt · 05-02-2003, 02:04 PM

You should read "THE Good Book" by Peter Gomes. He's at Harvard or Princeton, I forget which....anyway he has a chapter on how the Jews did not need Christ for salvation. Christ came as a way to give salvation to the Gentiles. There is a covenant between God and the Jews that is unbreakable.

Anyway, it's pretty interesting.

christ-on-a-stick · 05-02-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Christ came as a way to give salvation to the Gentiles. There is a covenant between God and the Jews that is unbreakable.

That whole "Chosen People" bit always struck me as remarkably akin to... racism.

A racist God? Or an ancient people who believed their race was "superior" - and created a God who thought so as well? Hmmm...

ReasonableDoubt · 05-02-2003, 02:17 PM

Well I wrote that in response to the question of why Christians would be upset about the Holocaust, if the Jews were going straight to hell to be tortured anyhow. There are some Christians who believe that they did not go to hell, for the reason i stated.

christ-on-a-stick · 05-02-2003, 02:22 PM

Oh, I realize that and have asked Xians the same question. IMO the "Jews were the exception because..." thing is the *only* way that they wriggle a way around the "Jesus is the ONLY way" doctrine and avoid the heinous conclusion that the Jews' suffering in concentration camps was only a drop in the bucket compared to what was coming next.

christ-on-a-stick · 05-02-2003, 02:24 PM

Frighteningly, I *have* come across some Xians that say YES, the "un-saved" (converted to Xianity) Jews *DID* go straight to hell, and that the only reason what the Nazis did to them was wrong was because it "wasn't up to them/their place to judge".

:shudder:

05-02-2003, 08:04 AM	#1
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Question about religion and the holocaust Something I've never understood, and maybe you can help me, being a Messianic Jew. Why were Christians so mad at Hitler? He was only doing to the Jews what they believe God is going to do to them anyway, right? ~Cal

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05-02-2003, 08:05 AM	#2
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Oops, meant to post this in GRD. My bad.

05-02-2003, 09:58 AM	#3
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	No thoughts on this one? sigh Yet another question that will forever remain unanswered.

05-02-2003, 10:12 AM	#4
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Hi Calzaer, I actually started a similar topic not too long ago and got a little bit of discussion...

05-02-2003, 02:02 PM	#5
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	A little while ago I too tried to draw Magus into a discussion about anti-Judaism and the NT http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=49787 . Magus kept calling himself a Messianic Jew so I thought that he would welcome an opportunity to explain some of the most egregious examples of NT anti-Jewish vitriol. He said �hello� but he ducked the issue. He seems to have stopped using the term Messianic Jew so as not to draw fire over this topic. I hope that you have more luck than I did. In 1898 Dr. Fridtjof Nansen published his book Eskimo Life. Chapter XIV is titled The Introduction of Christianity. Here is a quote from that Chapter. The story is quoted from another book by a Christian Missionary named Paul Egede �A girl was beaten by her priest, �because she could not believe that God was so cruel as he represented him to be; he had said that all her forefathers were with Tornarssuk, and were to be tortured for eternity, because they did not know God.� She tried to defend them by suggesting that they knew no better, whereupon he lost his temper; and when she at last said � that it was horrible for her to learn that God was so terribly angry with those who sinned that he could never forgive them, as even wicked men will sometimes do,� he gave her a beating.� I posted this little story before but I thought it was relevant to this discussion, in that it shows the extreme cruelty inherent in the Christian fantasy. I�m not so sure that I agree with the premise that is implied in the question, �Why were Christians so mad at Hitler?� Ever hear of Father Charles Coughlin, the American Bund, the KKK. or Charles Lindberg? None of these Christians were particularly mad at Hitler. There were Christians who were decent people and were �so mad at Hitler� but I don�t think we can credit this sort of decency to all Christians.

05-02-2003, 02:04 PM	#6
ReasonableDoubt Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 86	You should read "THE Good Book" by Peter Gomes. He's at Harvard or Princeton, I forget which....anyway he has a chapter on how the Jews did not need Christ for salvation. Christ came as a way to give salvation to the Gentiles. There is a covenant between God and the Jews that is unbreakable. Anyway, it's pretty interesting.

05-02-2003, 02:17 PM	#8
ReasonableDoubt Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 86	Well I wrote that in response to the question of why Christians would be upset about the Holocaust, if the Jews were going straight to hell to be tortured anyhow. There are some Christians who believe that they did not go to hell, for the reason i stated.

05-02-2003, 02:22 PM	#9
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Oh, I realize that and have asked Xians the same question. IMO the "Jews were the exception because..." thing is the only way that they wriggle a way around the "Jesus is the ONLY way" doctrine and avoid the heinous conclusion that the Jews' suffering in concentration camps was only a drop in the bucket compared to what was coming next.

05-02-2003, 02:24 PM	#10
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Frighteningly, I have come across some Xians that say YES, the "un-saved" (converted to Xianity) Jews DID go straight to hell, and that the only reason what the Nazis did to them was wrong was because it "wasn't up to them/their place to judge". :shudder:

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