Celsus

ConsequentAtheist,

I'm not sure about the answer to your question. One thing I'm trying to find out is linguistic evolution--how do we know what the words meant at the time of writing? For example, Deuteronomy 32:17 uses the term shed or "demon", but I see no evidence of such beliefs (in the usual connotation of "demon") this early. With Qumran/LXX so much later (and with such strongly monotheistic hermeneutics), I'm not sure if there is a connection.

Vinnie,

No problems.

Joel

[Back to your scheduled telecast]

Vinnie

Everybody is cool with my argument for divinity?

No holes?

Vinnie

Celsus

Sorry, you made an argument?

Kosh

Celsus and Haran, why don't you take the polytheism debate to a new thread?

Hobbs

Hmm, I seem to have arrived at this discussion a bit late, but I hope no one minds if I temporarily bring it back to the original topic (i.e. the claim that Jesus didn't think he was God) ...

I'd like to add a bit to Kosh's response.

Magus55, yes, this is a verse that is commonly used to say that Jesus claimed that he was God Himself. But the question is whether he meant this in a literal sense. I'm sure you've heard mystics say something to the effect of "I am one with the universe," and you realize that they do not mean that they are literally the universe, the whole universe, and nothing but the universe. Jesus's claim here is not unambiguous. Kosh pointed out that in just the next few verses after what you quote there is good reason to conclude that Jesus did not intend for this statement to mean that he was literally the same as God. In addition, there's a bit more later in John that would add weight to this figurative interpretation:

According to chapter 17, in the course of a rather long prayer, right about verses 20 and 21 Jesus prays "for those who will believe in me through their [the disciples'] message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us"

So, if the "I and the Father are one" statement is Jesus claiming literally to be the same as God Himself, then he is saying here that all his followers likewise are God. It sort of reminds me of a song: I in you and they in me and they are we and we are all together; I am the (self-fertilized) egg-man; I am the Godhead; Cookoo like you!" Or something like that.

I may be misremembering, but I cannot recall a place where Jesus is reported to have clearly and unambiguously stated that he was in fact the same entity as God, that he was literally God in the flesh.

Vinnie

Just an itty bitty one like that spider who went up the water spout. Down came the rains and washed my argument out?

Vinnie

Celsus

Sorry to derail this thread. If Haran is up for it, he can post a defense of why Judaism was monotheistic from the beginning (or suchlike), and we can kick off from there.

Joel

Vinnie

Cmon skeptics, why do you bother with exegeting GJohn? Don't you know the sayings material is on very shaky ground and all those I am sayings are rejected by virtually all critical scholars today?

The I am sayings reflect the voice of the community regarding the living and transforming Jesus. Something about him being functionally God.....

Vinnie

Kosh

Good point. But I always prefer to knock a building down by it's foundation...

Hobbs

Sure, we know that, but there are quite a lot of Christians who don't (or won't admit it, or reject their conclusions), so we have to deal with them accordingly.