Carrie

Christians say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one thing, and therefore Jesus is God. But Jesus didn't think that, and it's obvious that he didn't when you read the gospels. For example:

- Why would Jesus pray to God if he was God?

- It was also said that Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

- Jesus said he did not know the end time, only God knew.

- Jesus said, “Why call me good? Only God is good.” If he was sinless, and he was God, Jesus would also be good.

- Jesus thought God had forsaken him when he was on the cross. Why would he have thought that he was forsaken, if he knew on the 3rd day he’d rise again? Christians teach that Jesus had all the sin of the world on him at that moment on the cross, so God could not look at him, and for the first time Jesus was separated from his Father, so he thought he was forsaken. But the Bible does not say that. Christians just added that little explanation for themselves.

- Jesus said that God would send the Holy Spirit, which was a counselor, and the spirit of truth. Jesus did not say that it was his own spirit. It was a seperate spirit that would be sent to guide the believers into all truth. And wow, look how well it guided them into all truth!

- This is funny: Jesus did not think he was God; he prayed to God. Yet many Christians PRAY TO JESUS, not to God!

Magus55

Why do you just take thinks comletely at face value? Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean its wrong. When God came to earth in human form, he became slightly lower than the angels ( humans are lower than angels) - his humanity is what made him below God while he was on Earth.


Taken from Carm.org.


If Jesus is God, then why did He say
the Father was greater than He?

"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I'" (John 14:28).

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."
Jesus has two natures. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself human nature (Col. 2:9). He became a man to die for people.
A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together by love.
So, Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-5).

For further reading please see the two natures of Jesus.

SCRIPTURES QUOTED:

Phil. 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"

Gal. 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."

Heb. 2:9, "But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone."

You can find more info on your claims here...

http://www.carm.org/questions_Jesus.htm

Kosh

It is interesting to note that in response to Carrie's assertion, which used the Gospel accounts of Jesus words to determine what he thought of himself, Magus used only non-Gospel scriptures. Ie, all he has proven is what others (Paul mainly, a man who never met him) thought about Jesus.

These scriptures were written years after the fact, and don't prove anything except what the beliefs of the mythology had become.

Magus55

Apparently you don't know the defintion of Gospel.

Gospel
The Gospel is the good news that we have forgiveness of sins though Jesus. Specifically, the gospel is defined by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."
The gospel comes from God (Gal. 1:10-12), is the power of God for salvation (Rom. 1:16), is a mystery (Eph. 6:19), and is a source of hope (Col. 1:23), faith (Acts 15:7), life (1 Cor. 4:15), and peace (Eph. 6:15).


Paul DEFINED Gospel - Paul was an apostle - in fact hes considered the highest apostle since he had the most influence on the spread of Jesus' word. So yes he spent years following Jesus around. Sorry try again.

Kosh

Dear Magus,

the "Gospels" are the first four books of the New Testment. Mark, Mathew, Luke, John. Those are the Gospels to which I was referring. Regardless of whether our definitions of Gospel line up, the statement stands as true. Carrie quoted from "The Gospels", the first four books, you quoted from Paul.

And you are sadly mistaken. Paul NEVER met Jesus. He was converted to Xianity on the road to Damascus a full 3 years after Jesus had been crucified. This is documented in the book of Acts, IIRC.

Magus55

Well why do you think he was converted to Christianity? He saw Jesus after his ressurection.

diana

You might consider asking someone who isn't a babe in Xst about the strength and veracity of your points before you come here and embarrass yourself like this, Magus.

Paul never even claimed to have met Xst in the flesh. The only encounter I recall him mentioning was seeing him on the road to Damascus--when he was struck blind and/or deaf. As Kosh just pointed out, that was after the death of Xst.

Before that, if you recall, Paul went by the name "Saul" and persecuted Xns for fun. This is unlikely if he was busy following The Chap around.

Please think before you speak. I cringe for you.

d

Jayhawker Soule

You should be ashamed of yourself.

diana

Really? But you said he spent years following Jesus around.

Just how long do you think Jesus was walking around full of holes before he wafted up into the blue, anyway?

d

Magus55

Yes and that was a mistake on my part - i haven't done much reading on Paul's life other than what he did in response to Jesus.