Grumpy

The problem with Leviticus is that it says quite clearly that man-man sex must be punished with death but is less clear on why. Because they violated the natural order? Because they spread disease? Because they improperly mixed things which must be separate (like milk & meat)?

Especially where the latter reason is concerned, it's very confusing to see most of the Levitical holiness code ignored while the rule against homosexuality (but not lesbians!) is enforced.

Gregg

(Strikes head sharply against stone wall. Once. Twice. Three times.) Ok, I'm better now.

(Very calmly and politely.) DavidH, you are not gay. Therefore, you cannot presume to know how gay couples feel about each other. However, I think it is reasonable to assume that they feel much the same way that straight people feel. Are you married? Do you love your wife? Do you love her deeply? Do you love her on many levels? Do you love her as a partner, as a friend, as a confidante, and as a lover? When you make love, is it only about pleasure, or is it about expressing in a physical way the deep emotional and spiritual connections between you? And, are you prepared to voluntarily give up that physical expression of intimacy and "just be friends" with your wife? Would you like it if someone tried to force you to give it up?

Why are you so incapable of seeing that a gay person might feel exactly the same way about his/her partner?

Are many gay relationships just about the sex? Of course. And so are many straight relationships. But do you judge all straight relationships on the basis of the shallow ones?

"Hate" what they do? Why? Hate the act of showing mutual, consensual love and affection toward another? I don't understand. Why should I hate this? I hate acts that hurt people, not acts of affirmative love.

I guess you feel we should "hate what they do" because it defies the will of Yahweh. It has nothing to do with reason or logic, and empathy and compassion must not be allowed to interfere either. Yahweh made men for women and vice versa, and it doesn't matter if you seem to have been made to love Steve instead of Eve. It's wrong, it's bad, it's evil, and you just better pray that God sees fit to burn those disgusting feelings out of you.<strong> A man was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. And in any event, DavidH, this is a cheap cop-out. You know bloody well that those punishments were meted out. Happens all the time in the Islamic world today--you think the Israelites were kinder and gentler back then?

Moreoever, capital punishment was the penalty for all sorts of crimes, even cursing one's parents. Ultimately, sin in the Bible isn't about immoral behavior--it's about defying God's will. It doesn't matter that that what God wills may seem irrational or even immoral. Obedience is good, disobedience is sin. Period.
<strong> Here you have it. The ultimate cop-out. "I don't judge them, God does." No, DavidH, you can't get out of it that easy. If you choose to believe in this god, knowing exactly what this god wills and how this god judges, then you have accepted the god's will and judgements as your own. You did not enter into this covenant relationship with the Hebrew tribal god, Yahweh, blindly. You knew exactly how this god felt about homosexual relationships because he told you himself in his book. When you accepted him, you accepted the whole package. Yahweh's will is your will--Yahweh's judgments are your judgments.
<strong> Yes, there's always a time of judgment coming, isn't there? "But now it's for real, look at all the stuff happening in the world!" What does destroying ourselves out of our own stupidity and arrogance have to do with god's judgment? And if this god is so damn just, then after we do ourselves in, won't he be more interested in punishing all the warlords and terrorists and corrupt politicians and corporate rapists and ignorant, hate spewing RELIGIOUS FANATICS who were responsible, and show a little compassion for people who just wanted some love and companionship, and for women who were forced by circumstances to sell themselves for money?
<strong> Don't you mean Joshua's day? And isn't that so convenient! Nobody was around with a tape recorder or camcorder back then, so no one can prove one way or another that Yahweh didn't send dark clouds and lightning over Canaan one day and say in an earsplitting, thunderous voice, "REPENT YE, OR I SHALT SEND MY CHOSEN PEOPLE, THE ISRAELITES, TO SLAUGHTER THEE, TO KILL THY MENFOLK, CHILDREN, AND OLD WOMEN, BUT TO KEEP THE SEXY VIRGINS FOR THEMSELVES! NOT THAT IT REALLY MATTERS IF YOU REPENT OR NOT, BECAUSE I'VE ALREADY PROMISED YOUR LAND TO MY CHOSEN PEOPLE, SO YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO VACATE THE PREMISES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!!!" And of course the reason we don't find anything like that happening today is that for some reason Yahweh just doesn't do it anymore. Maybe he decided it wasn't effective or something.<strong> And Yahweh's punishments are fair and just. Death and hell for the defiant and disobedient, eternal bliss for the faithful and obedient. Sleeping with a person of the same sex, cursing your parents--unending torment is a fair and appropriate punishment for such heinious sins.<strong> And no appeal to reason, logic, compassion, empathy, fairness, or any other "merely human" standard shall prevail upon you to change your mind. How very compassionate of you. I'm so touched, I think I'm going to cry. Yes, you've made your attitude crystal clear, thank you. A 2,500 year-old-text sets your attitude for you, and relieves you of the necessity of thought. Done.

Gregg

Man, it's hard to get all those quotes right!
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Marduk

Does this condemnation of Homosexual relations also appear in Deuteronomy?
I thought Leviticus only contained rules for the Preistly Levite tribe, not the whole world.

Grumpy

Deuteronomy 23:17 "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite [Qadesh] of the sons of Israel." <a href="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06945&version=" target="_blank">Qadesh</a> is translated as "male temple prostitute," though this verse is the only use of the word in the Pentateuch. In Job 36:14, it is translated as "unclean": "They ['hypocrites in heart'] die in youth, and their life is among the unclean."

And there's Deuteronomy 22:5, which prohibits women from wearing men's clothing, but I don't know if that counts as a ban on homosexuality.

Still, I don't know how much Deuteronomy is in force as a universal law, moreso than Leviticus. The same chapter also features God's instructions for poo:

So for God's sake, dig a latrine! Or else the LORD might accidentally step in it.

Steven Carr

Where did Jesus rescue a prostitute? I must have missed that bit.

Gregg

He seems to have adulteress and prostitute confused.

Gregg

s0uljah

For Old Testament laws, search Leviticus. For New Testament, read Romans.

P.S.

Homosexual acts are considered sins, not the attraction that some people do not choose to feel.

Gregg

In that case, why do YOU dispute them? God's will is clear--sexually active bisexuals and homosexuals, and even straight men who have sexual relations with other men (such as in prison) MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. God has already passed judgment on them and decreed the punishment (which he clearly states is to be carried about by men, not by himself). Furthermore, all indications are that God wants the punishment to be swift and merciless...there are no second or third chances, or a set of increasingly severe penalties culminating with capital punishment. If someone says the act occurs, and the authorities agree, death is the penalty. No warnings, no appeals, no mercy.

Oh, I know. God changed his mind about this, right? Jesus preached mercy and compassion and leaving the judging and punishing to God. Then I wonder why he also said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets...not a jot, not a tittle, shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled" ? I don't see where this allows for reinterpreting Levitus 20:13 so the putting to death part is shifted to God and our part is just warning people that God will get them if they don't behave. Well, yes, when you've never actually seen this god perform any miracles. Lots of ancient writings from all over the world speak of gods peforming miracles, but YOU don't believe that THOSE gods ever existed or that THEY really did miracles, do you? So why should it surprise you if someone else extends this skepticism to YOUR god? Pointing to your ancient book doesn't prove anything. I can point to ancient writings that speak of Zeus, Apollo, Diana, Isis, Ra, Anubis, Woden, Thor, Shiva, and dozens of other gods doing miracles. No, your god needs to perform some miracles now, today, in this camcorder age. He needs to turn some sticks into snakes, transform Kool-Aid into rum punch, make pigs fly, bring corpses back to life, cause the sun to stand still. Once he's done that and it's all been caught on tape and shown on CNN, you can come back and thumb your nose at us. I happen to agree that calling them sexist isn't really accurate. It's only when an archaic moral standard (such as, people of my color are better than people of your color, therefore its OK if we enslave you) is replaced with a new, enlightend moral standard (people are equal regardless of color) that people who CONTINUE to follow the old, unenlightened standard can be fairly judged as "racist."

But I used slavery and racism as my example for a reason. The Bible condones slavery, and it can also be strongly argued that it condones racism. I'm sure you would agree that both are immoral. So, why aren't Biblical attitudes toward women (they were considered less valuable than slaves) subject to condemnation as well? Why should it be? The burden's on you to demonstrate why people should believe in the Hebrew tribal deity, Yahweh, instead of other gods. Why shouldn't I believe in the Egyptian gods, for instance? They sustained Egypt for 3,000 years. Just because Yahweh has stuck around up to today doesn't mean another god won't replace him tomorrow. What good does THAT do us, if we don't have them? Do you have copies of these original Hebrew texts? Also, are these texts faithful transcriptions of a pure, unadulturated oral tradition stretching back to the days of Cain? Are you sure the passages about circumcision appeared in the earliest texts, and weren't written in later to justify the practice after it was instituted by the priests during the Babylonian captivity? So why doesn't Yahweh speak out of the clouds and make it plain to us? Why does he expect us to entrust our salvation to his grand plan as outlined in an ancient book, parts of which no longer make sense to us? Of course you'll say we understand the "really important parts." But if something makes no sense to you, how do you decide whether it's important or not?

Why doesn't Yahweh take up all the copies of the Bible into heaven and edit them, update the language, clarify all the obscure passages, delete any outdated or irrelevant material, and produce several custom versions for specific cultures? Better yet, why doesn't he just make a video? I'm not being facetious. I thought you said he could do miracles, so why won't he do this thing, which should be quite simple for him? Doesn't he love us? Doesn't he want to give us every chance to be saved? Doesn't he want to be sure that we understand his every word with crystal clarity? A professionally shot video (making use of the blue dot, since we're not supposed to see Yahweh's face, or just using a voiceover) with creative use of PowerPoint and flowcharting to concisely chart the course of salvation history, plus scenes graphically documenting the joys of heaven and the torments of hell, smartly packaged and magically appearing in shops and bookstores all over the world complete with promotional materials and an attractive display, would go a long way toward convincing more people to sign on to Yahweh's plan for humankind. It's interesting you admit that there are "loads" of apparent contradictions in the Bible, even if you have explanations for them. Again, why didn't Yahweh write his book in such a way that it couldn't possibly be misunderstood or misinterpreted, so Christians like you wouldn't have to spend so much precious evangelizing time clarifying it for the rest of us?

How about this one? On a couple of occasions, Yahweh tells folks that the sins of the parents will be visited on their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and so on. Yet he later says (in Isaiah, I believe), "Who made up this saying, 'the parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? Don't say that anymore...all lives are mine... the soul that sins shall die." In other words, before, people could be punished for what their folks did; now, they'll only be judged according to their own sins. Seems pretty clear to me that Yahweh is not only changing his previous policy, he's denying that the previous policy was even his. Got an explanation for this one?

Gregg

Grumpy

It's true that Paul's letter to the Romans (the longest of the epistles, for those just tuning in) is attributed as the source of "new" law for Christians, but I've never understood why. Paul frequently says that he is expressing his own opinion, humbly disavowing any authority his words might carry. So when he says (1:24-27) that men lusting for men (and, newly added to the law, women lusting for women) is indecent and perverse, how do we know this isn't merely his own opinion? No one is compelled to remake themselves in Paul's image.

To be sure, modern churches do not view Paul's opinions as authoritative. Why else would so many denominations welcome gay members? (Oh yeah, because they're possessed by demon liberals. )

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