Freethought & Rationalism Archive

02-28-2002, 06:35 AM

our entire legal system was founded on judeo-christian biblical principles. 'laws of nature and nature's God-(from the first sentence of the Declaratio of Independence). See Blackstone's commentaries. As the first truly Christian established nation we were tolerant of other faiths, not secular. The French Revolution was the first 'secular' or atheistic revolution and what a bloody affair it was. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany were both secular and Darwinists, and we know what sort of tolerance they both exercised. As President Thomas Jefferson required only two textbooks for the Washington DC school district, the bible and a hymn book. In his farewell address, George Washington said,"OF ALL THE DISPOSITIONS AND HABITS WHICH LEAD TO POLITICAL PROSPERITY, RELIGION AND MORALITY ARE INDISPENSABLE SUPPORTS. IN VAIN WOULD THAT MAN CLAIM THE TRIBUTE OF PATRIOTISM WHO SHOULD LABOR TO SUBVERT THESE GREAT PILLARS OF HUMAN HAPPINESS". If that is not clear enough, consider the words of John Adams,"OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER". or Patrick Henry who said, "THE GREATEST PILLARS OF ALL GOVERNMNET AND SOCIAL LIFE...ARE VIRTUE, MORALITY, AND RELIGION. THIS IS THE ARMOR MY FRIEND, AND THIS ALONE THAT RENDERS US INVINCIBLE". we may wish to change the future, but we should never accept lies about our nations past.

-DM- · 02-28-2002, 07:59 AM

[Note: This was moved here from Feedback in order to facilitate a response from those who are knowledgeable with regard to the subject. --Don--]

ImGod · 02-28-2002, 08:32 AM

I may not be an expert on the subject but at least I did some simple research on the subject before posting.

The references you provided happen to be declarations and/or opinions and not what the country was founded on. My opinion is that the attributes of virtuous, moral, and religious to which you refer, can be separated and are not mutually exclusive. Notice to, that none of the speeches you reference specifically call for god to be the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god of the bible/quran.

The first sentence of the Declaration of Independence actually reads:

WHEN, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which, the laws of nature, and of nature's God, entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind, requires, that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

from
Library of Congress

I take the US Constitution to be the founding document of our country. You can read it yourself at the following Library of Congress site:

US Constitution

You may notice that religion (not god) is only mentioned once and in the following context:

Article [I.] \13\

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It seems to me that you have taken a few words out of context and confused the wishes of our founding fathers with your own.

-DM- · 02-28-2002, 08:49 AM

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html" target="_blank">The Christian Nation Myth</a> by Farrell Till

<a href="http://www.au.org/myths.htm" target="_blank">Americans United for Separation of Church and State re: Myths</a>

<a href="http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html" target="_blank">The Faith of our Founding Fathers</a>

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html" target="_blank">Is America a Christian Nation?</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/founding-fathers.html" target="_blank">Founding Father Quotes</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html" target="_blank">Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church</a>

<a href="http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html" target="_blank">The Faith of our Founding Fathers</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/william_edelen/religionviolence.html" target="_blank">Religion is the Cause of Violence</a> by William Edelen

Toto · 02-28-2002, 11:00 AM

Wow! another drive-by Christian who can find the Caps lock but can't figure out how to make a new paragraph!

Quote:

Originally posted by <c morasch>:
our entire legal system was founded on judeo-christian biblical principles. 'laws of nature and nature's God-(from the first sentence of the Declaratio of Independence). See Blackstone's commentaries.

"Nature's God" is a Deistic formulation. The Christian God lives outside of nature, and the Christian Bible tells Christians that all government rules by God's grace - including mad King George III - and Christians should just obey.

As for Blackstone, Thomas Jefferson refuted his claim that the English common law was based on the Bible here.

Quote:

As the first truly Christian established nation we were tolerant of other faiths, not secular.

You mean that all those other Christians from Constantine to the European kings who claimed to rule by divine right (and performed faith healings to prove it) - had it wrong? Why did God wait over 1700 years after sacrificing his son before revealing True Christianity?

Quote:

The French Revolution was the first 'secular' or atheistic revolution and what a bloody affair it was. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany were both secular and Darwinists, and we know what sort of tolerance they both exercised.

Interesting that you try to distinguish the French and American Revolutions, when they both sprang from the same philosophies. Do you think that the American Revolution was bloodless? Do you remember something about the tree of liberty being watered by the blood of patriots?

Nazi Germany was definitely not secular. Hitler used the churches, and claimed to be a Christian. Communist "Russia" suffered severe agricultural problems because it rejected Darwinism in favor of an alternative theory.

Quote:

As President Thomas Jefferson required only two textbooks for the Washington DC school district, the bible and a hymn book. In his farewell address, George Washington said,"OF ALL THE DISPOSITIONS AND HABITS WHICH LEAD TO POLITICAL PROSPERITY, RELIGION AND MORALITY ARE INDISPENSABLE SUPPORTS. IN VAIN WOULD THAT MAN CLAIM THE TRIBUTE OF PATRIOTISM WHO SHOULD LABOR TO SUBVERT THESE GREAT PILLARS OF HUMAN HAPPINESS". If that is not clear enough, consider the words of John Adams,"OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER". or Patrick Henry who said, "THE GREATEST PILLARS OF ALL GOVERNMNET AND SOCIAL LIFE...ARE VIRTUE, MORALITY, AND RELIGION. THIS IS THE ARMOR MY FRIEND, AND THIS ALONE THAT RENDERS US INVINCIBLE". we may wish to change the future, but we should never accept lies about our nations past.

I don't know if those quotes are in fact correct, because True Christians have a habit of making things up and putting them in the mouths of the founding fathers. But even those quotes do not mention Christianity - just some vague "relgion". We know that Thomas Jefferson took the Bible and cut out the supernatural parts with a pair of scissors, and that Washington refused to take communion.

If you are looking for lies about our nation's past, look at what you wrote.

MortalWombat · 02-28-2002, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Communist "Russia" suffered severe agricultural problems because it rejected Darwinism in favor of an alternative theory.

That would be Lysenkoism, named after Trofim Lysenko, who rejected both Darwin and Mendel.

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]

Atari2600 · 02-28-2002, 10:26 PM

Quote:

If that is not clear enough, consider the words of John Adams,"OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER".

That's nice. Check this out.
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by
John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)

-DM- · 03-04-2002, 08:28 AM

[Posted in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001924" target="_blank">Feedback</a> by <Charley>; copied and pasted here by me. --Don--]

----------- Begin quoted material -----------

freethinkers? and yet you censor any strong argument you do not agree with. (c morasch feb 28th) I have never seen anything filled with so much propaganda misinformation and half truths as this web site. how about just listening to the words of the founders themselves---George Washinton
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to pol prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports"
John Adams-
"our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people, it is wholly inadequate to the governing of any other"
The anti-slave movement was born and had it's momentum created in our churches. I suppose you believe that they should not have been politically involved in that process. The founders believed our freedoms depended on our faith and our moral strength. Self government= self control.
In 60's language, "there is none so blind as he who will not see" chmajamo@netscape.net

----------- End quoted material -----------

-DM- · 03-04-2002, 08:29 AM

Charley:

You have a very strange perception of the meaning of the word "censor" given that the [allegedly] strong argument which we [allegedly] don't agree with which was put forth by "c morasch" (is that you?) in the laws of nature topic on February 28th and which we [allegedly] censored is and has been open for discussion in our <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000097" target="_blank">Church-State Separation</a> forum as noted in the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001867" target="_blank">Missing Post?</a> thread here in Feedback. Censor" means "to examine and expurgate, to examine and suppress or delete anything considered objectionable." Inasmuch as the post in question has not in any way been deleted, suppressed, or altered and inasmuch as it is open for discussion, it certainly cannot correctly be thought of as having been censored.

If you have any further comment regarding this issue, you will need to become a <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=agree" target="_blank">registered user</a> and take part in the discussion of the topic in our <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000097" target="_blank">Church-State Separation</a> forum. Note that I have copied this post of yours and this response of mine into that thread so that others may respond.

In the meantime, in order to prepare yourself for the discussion there, you might want to brush up on the facts a bit. Here is some suggested reading:

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html" target="_blank">The Christian Nation Myth</a>

<a href="http://www.au.org/myths.htm" target="_blank">Americans United for Separation of Church and State re: Myths</a>

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html" target="_blank">Is America a Christian Nation?</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/founding-fathers.html" target="_blank">Founding Father Quotes</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html" target="_blank">Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church</a>

<a href="http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html" target="_blank">The Faith of our Founding Fathers</a>

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html" target="_blank"> The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State</a>

<a href="http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeffcont.htm" target="_blank">Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government</a>

---------

"None is so blind as he who will not see" that there is more than one side to this question.

--Don--

P.S. You should probably also familiarize yourself with the meaning of the word "freethinker" which has more to do with rejection of religious dogma than it does with free thinking.

02-28-2002, 06:35 AM	#1
Guest Posts: n/a	laws of nature our entire legal system was founded on judeo-christian biblical principles. 'laws of nature and nature's God-(from the first sentence of the Declaratio of Independence). See Blackstone's commentaries. As the first truly Christian established nation we were tolerant of other faiths, not secular. The French Revolution was the first 'secular' or atheistic revolution and what a bloody affair it was. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany were both secular and Darwinists, and we know what sort of tolerance they both exercised. As President Thomas Jefferson required only two textbooks for the Washington DC school district, the bible and a hymn book. In his farewell address, George Washington said,"OF ALL THE DISPOSITIONS AND HABITS WHICH LEAD TO POLITICAL PROSPERITY, RELIGION AND MORALITY ARE INDISPENSABLE SUPPORTS. IN VAIN WOULD THAT MAN CLAIM THE TRIBUTE OF PATRIOTISM WHO SHOULD LABOR TO SUBVERT THESE GREAT PILLARS OF HUMAN HAPPINESS". If that is not clear enough, consider the words of John Adams,"OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER". or Patrick Henry who said, "THE GREATEST PILLARS OF ALL GOVERNMNET AND SOCIAL LIFE...ARE VIRTUE, MORALITY, AND RELIGION. THIS IS THE ARMOR MY FRIEND, AND THIS ALONE THAT RENDERS US INVINCIBLE". we may wish to change the future, but we should never accept lies about our nations past.

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02-28-2002, 07:59 AM	#2
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	[Note: This was moved here from Feedback in order to facilitate a response from those who are knowledgeable with regard to the subject. --Don--]

02-28-2002, 08:32 AM	#3
ImGod Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nebraska Posts: 6,264	I may not be an expert on the subject but at least I did some simple research on the subject before posting. The references you provided happen to be declarations and/or opinions and not what the country was founded on. My opinion is that the attributes of virtuous, moral, and religious to which you refer, can be separated and are not mutually exclusive. Notice to, that none of the speeches you reference specifically call for god to be the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god of the bible/quran. The first sentence of the Declaration of Independence actually reads: WHEN, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which, the laws of nature, and of nature's God, entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind, requires, that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. from Library of Congress I take the US Constitution to be the founding document of our country. You can read it yourself at the following Library of Congress site: US Constitution You may notice that religion (not god) is only mentioned once and in the following context: Article [I.] \13\ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. It seems to me that you have taken a few words out of context and confused the wishes of our founding fathers with your own.

02-28-2002, 08:49 AM	#4
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html" target="_blank">The Christian Nation Myth</a> by Farrell Till <a href="http://www.au.org/myths.htm" target="_blank">Americans United for Separation of Church and State re: Myths</a> <a href="http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html" target="_blank">The Faith of our Founding Fathers</a> <a href="http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html" target="_blank">Is America a Christian Nation?</a> <a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/founding-fathers.html" target="_blank">Founding Father Quotes</a> <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html" target="_blank">Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church</a> <a href="http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html" target="_blank">The Faith of our Founding Fathers</a> <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/william_edelen/religionviolence.html" target="_blank">Religion is the Cause of Violence</a> by William Edelen

03-04-2002, 08:28 AM	#8
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	[Posted in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001924" target="_blank">Feedback</a> by <Charley>; copied and pasted here by me. --Don--] ----------- Begin quoted material ----------- freethinkers? and yet you censor any strong argument you do not agree with. (c morasch feb 28th) I have never seen anything filled with so much propaganda misinformation and half truths as this web site. how about just listening to the words of the founders themselves---George Washinton "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to pol prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports" John Adams- "our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people, it is wholly inadequate to the governing of any other" The anti-slave movement was born and had it's momentum created in our churches. I suppose you believe that they should not have been politically involved in that process. The founders believed our freedoms depended on our faith and our moral strength. Self government= self control. In 60's language, "there is none so blind as he who will not see" chmajamo@netscape.net ----------- End quoted material -----------

03-04-2002, 08:29 AM	#9
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	Charley: You have a very strange perception of the meaning of the word "censor" given that the [allegedly] strong argument which we [allegedly] don't agree with which was put forth by "c morasch" (is that you?) in the laws of nature topic on February 28th and which we [allegedly] censored is and has been open for discussion in our <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000097" target="_blank">Church-State Separation</a> forum as noted in the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001867" target="_blank">Missing Post?</a> thread here in Feedback. Censor" means "to examine and expurgate, to examine and suppress or delete anything considered objectionable." Inasmuch as the post in question has not in any way been deleted, suppressed, or altered and inasmuch as it is open for discussion, it certainly cannot correctly be thought of as having been censored. If you have any further comment regarding this issue, you will need to become a <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=agree" target="_blank">registered user</a> and take part in the discussion of the topic in our <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000097" target="_blank">Church-State Separation</a> forum. Note that I have copied this post of yours and this response of mine into that thread so that others may respond. In the meantime, in order to prepare yourself for the discussion there, you might want to brush up on the facts a bit. Here is some suggested reading: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html" target="_blank">The Christian Nation Myth</a> <a href="http://www.au.org/myths.htm" target="_blank">Americans United for Separation of Church and State re: Myths</a> <a href="http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.html" target="_blank">Is America a Christian Nation?</a> <a href="http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/founding-fathers.html" target="_blank">Founding Father Quotes</a> <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html" target="_blank">Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church</a> <a href="http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html" target="_blank">The Faith of our Founding Fathers</a> <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html" target="_blank"> The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State</a> <a href="http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeffcont.htm" target="_blank">Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government</a> --------- "None is so blind as he who will not see" that there is more than one side to this question. --Don-- P.S. You should probably also familiarize yourself with the meaning of the word "freethinker" which has more to do with rejection of religious dogma than it does with free thinking.

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