Amos

Thanks for the spelling correction Sabine and I will remember that one.

Interesting and that is what I wanted to hear because there are many of them in France and Russia. We had one in our community. Paris is proud of them, correct?

HaysooChreesto!

The title of the post is corrupt because it implies "Catholic Sense".

Sabine Grant

Hello again Amos... One of the symbols of the people of Paris is Gavroche. Again Victor Hugo influenced parisian culture with the original character found in Les Miserables of the Gavroche, a homeless kid who dies on the barricades. The typical clochard lives under the bridges of the river ( at least the romantic image of the clochard). That image has disappeared to give place to the " sans abris" ( without shelter) who range from mentaly ill folks, to addicts, alcoholics, Aids victims, outcasts who seem to not be able to fit in the structures of society. I believe the Us is more concerned about helping homeless folks than we are in France. There is also a great deal of indifference from the population. There are so many pan handlers that the population is tired of "giving".

The increase of illegal immigrants mostly from Africa constitute also part of the homeless population. Some live in communities who occupy deserted ruined houses and easily get ill because of poor sanitary conditions. France ends up being the "promise land" where they end up with TB or other infections as they face a climate they are not used to, poor nutrition etc....

I do not know how many real clochards in the tradition of Gavroche are left....if you can, look for Poulbot the painter who represents superbly the image of our clochard as this cute kid wearing a top hat and opened up soles still with a flower on what is left of his coat.

Amos

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Thanks for that Sabine. Yes, things have changed. I had a friend from Paris who told me all about them (nice stories). Somewhere I feel close to them but I don't really know. I've been to Paris several times but always with the family and really had little time to check this out. Be carefull here Sabine because Victor Hugo my romanticize the clochards somewhat but he cannot turn vagrants into saints without any justification.

I always though that Holland was the promised land and have heard it said that in 180 countries around the world they know exactly where Holland is (the Netherlands). I've been asked from here to sponser workers in the Netherlands (we employ people over there).

Yes I have "Le Miserables" and will have to read it too. Thanks again.

beyelzu

sabine: I Is it possible that you could be wrong in your assessment on homeless people?

all things are possible. but i doubt it.


sabine:Frankly I find your opinions to be uncompassionate and not productive to the betterment of humanity.

i do not care about the betterment of humanity. if a person cannot make rational decisions that keeps him or her from being homeless then that is THEIR problem. not societies and not mine. again i would like to point out that need is not a virtue.

sabine: I would make no difference between an homosexual Aids patient or an heterosexual Aids patient. They are both needy people who are dying.


neither do i. if a heterosexual made poor decisions and got aids then they also should have to deal with the consequences of their actions. their plight is not mine.

sabine: If I follow your reasoning regarding who is a victim who is not, then anyone who happens to be ill due to their lifestyle or habits is to be neglicted. That would include anyone who has high cholesterol because of their diet, anyone who has COPD and emphysema because of smoking, anyone who exposed their skin to too much sun and has skin cancer and so and so on. Hopefuly you can examine your own habits and find that none of your habits could result in a decline of your health or social condition so you may never have to depend on folks like Ronin or myself to find some degree of help.

you understand my point of view completely. and i smoke 3 packs of cigarrettes a day. if i need medical attention i will either pay for it or not get it. the consequences of MY actions are MY problem.


sabine: We have a duty to provide the means to restore a human being to health or a normal social level.

that i completely disagree with.



sabine: The mentaly ill homeless individual DESERVES treatment and rehab time if involved in addictive habits. Some of them have a potential to get better and be productive in society. We can be part of that endeavor thanks to our tax system.

again i would like to point out that need really is not a virtue. if someone chooses to help these russian roullette vicitims, then that is their business, however it is immoral for the government to force me to help them.

beyelzu

yes i am so incredibly blessed with my alcoholic drug-abusing mother who tried to kill herself in front of me when i was 10. or perhaps i am incredibly blessed by my dead father who had a stroke when i was 5. (he died when i was 13) or wait maybe the advantage i had was an outhouse, no running water, poverty, a bipolar disorder.

no, the one advantage i do have is livingin america. i have worked hard to what material wealth i do have. i started working when i was 17 and at 25 i can say that the longest i have been without a job was 1 month when i started college. now i work 70 hrs a week. now compared to your average ethiopian i am lucky. but one of the reasons aids has spread through much of africa is an old village tradition(you should like this amos) of a man marrying his brother's widow. thats one of the ways the virus spread, lack of condoms is another, i would imagine. so if you get aids in africa maybe its not your fault. maybe you are just ignorant. but i would like to point out that our conversation was concerning the western world and that i already excused hemophiliacs from this because of lack of fault. certainly babies born with aids didnt bring it upon themselves.

Amos

I always thought it was those American safari hunters invading their straw huts with jukeboxes instead of guns.

Ronin

Fair enough, Beyelzu ~ However, I do not percieve any sense of virtue or even self-worth with that position.

I once met a man who was between hitching rides to Florida in the heat of a Mississippi summer. He had spent many hours merely walking down Highway 90 when he was assaulted and robbed of the money he had saved for his trip.

Soon, he recovered his footing and began walking eastbound again. After awhile he began yelling obsenities at motorists and walking into traffic.

When I found him, I observed a haggard transient becoming more and more violent as he tore at his own clothing and approached me threateningly. Having had years of experience, I fought him to the ground with only necessary force and secured him for his own safety.

I did not characterize this man as useless, faulty or a lesser being deserving of his own fate in that moment...I recognized a fellow human in need and requested medical assistance.

He was soon carted off in an ambulance, despite his lack of wealth and medically treated for the assault and extreme heat exposure and dehydration that no one knew he was suffering from upon initial observation.

Though you would require some litimus test prior to expressing selfless compassion, if at all, there are many who would rather give others the benefit of the doubt and do all that they could to relieve as much suffering as possible.

I don't think anyone is saying that we perpetually carry everyone throughout their lives, but it is only right to lend a helping hand in whatever way possible.

I also do not attempt to portray to you that this will always benefit those who are simply not able to find the internal will to change ~

Annie

~ but we would be a heartless and callous species if we did not do our best to try.

Sabine Grant

Good morning Beyelzu.... it is possible also that the hardship you encountered as a kid may have conditionned you to numb yourself from any kind of pain.... including other people's pain.

Virtue comes on how we respond to the needs and I agree with Ronin that a sense of self worth is enhanced as we expand our efforts to improve the quality of life of others.

I want to encourage you to try a different outlook mostly because your survival from difficult conditions makes you an individual with great potential to make a difference.

The propagation of HIV in Africa is more complex than what you have presented. In any case, we need to do damage control regardless of how an individual's decisions contributed to his hardship.

I believe that compassion is contagious. If anyone manifests empathy for any of your situations, you would be motivated to manifest empathy to others. There is too much adversity challenging the human condition for us to live without the benefits of a support system.

Beyelzu.. I work with both home bound patients and also senior citizens who have come to retire in the Tampa area. I guess it was their choice to depend soly on SS checks and Medicare for their old days. Some live in very poor conditions and must depend on the county social services to be able to remain in their home rather than land in a third class nursing home. Because they once contributed to society they have the right to depend on society today for support. That is how our system works. And I will most probably depend on it in my old days.

You mentionned your childhood and maybe it would help you give others the benefit of the doubt as you consider that they were once a little kid with kids'needs who may have encountered similar circumstances as yours or even worse.

The miserable and pathetic homeless individual undermined by alcoholism or drugs was once a little buddy who had dreams. He has an identity and a humanity. We only need to help him regain that sense of identity so his humanity can recover. The Aids patient who took unnecessary risks was once a little buddy too. His fears today are not different from the fears of a child.

There is so much benefit for yourself in seeing the little child in each needy person you encounter.

Starboy

Beyelzu, if there were no society whatsoever, do you think you could survive by youself? To be completely independent of contact or assistance of any kind from anyone? Do you think there is a benifit derived by an individual by being a member of a society? Even to be a member that cares not for the rest of society?

Starboy