Freethought & Rationalism Archive

12-20-2002, 04:28 AM

My Catholic grandfather passed away a few years ago (my grandmother died a few years before he did), and last night I decided to finally look through some of the books/papers that he left me.

I was shocked to discover about six or seven "certificates" that my Catholic relatives sent grandpa assuring him that they were praying on a daily basis so that my grandmother would be released from the flames of Purgatory. They promise that a special Mass will be held for my grandmother's soul, and there's also some nonsense about "spiritual privileges" that she will supposedly get in the afterlife. The certificates are all accompanied by a sickening picture of an emaciated, suffering (dead?) Jesus being cradled in his mother's arms.

My grandmother was a wonderful, caring woman and it sickens me to know that so many of her relatives think that she was/is suffering in Purgatory simply because she wasn't good enough for Heaven. Don't get me wrong...I don't actually believe in these places, but it just pisses me off to know that others do.

The "Purgatory" certificates are going in the recycle bin first thing in the morning.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

ManM · 12-20-2002, 04:38 AM

It sounds to me that they cared about your grandmother a great deal. The motivation behind those certificates seems quite loving.

Born Free · 12-20-2002, 04:43 AM

Don't get me started on how I feel about the myth of purgatory. Grrrrrrrr. Recycle bin is the best place for them, actually burning them or shredding them is even better.

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 12-20-2002, 04:54 AM

Yeah, I can understand. I can sorta see the necessity of purgatory in their own worldview, and it's certainly better than sending the person to hell for eternity. Still, good people shouldn't require such punishment anyway. God should be able to forgive people without torturing them first.

It's amazing to me how otherwise good people can worship a deity who would gleefully send our loved ones to torture for awhile because they weren't good enough for heaven.

-Nick

Godless Dave · 12-20-2002, 05:30 AM

It's even more amazing to think that God's decisions about where souls go can be influenced by a paper certificate.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]</p>

abe smith · 12-20-2002, 05:48 AM

If you HAVEN"T burned them yet, Person, I'd like to suggest that you stash those Horrible Examples away in some safe, non-incendiary place; to produce them 3 decades or so from now when the Cheuch (that human fiction) will have relinquished all that shit, as they have relinquished so much other shit very quietly w/o ever mentioning them.
I happened to pick up a 4or5 decade-old textbook of "Moral Theology"
(t.e. preVatican 2) which is rife w/ junk assertions that have been quietly discarded. Of course, the Teachers now teaching all that stuff learned what they know/teach from such sources.... The firing-squad may be the answer.

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 12-20-2002, 06:39 AM

Quote:

It's even more amazing to think that God's decisions about where are souls go can be influenced by a paper certificate.

LOL, so true. How can people living in today's society believe that a piece of paper can influence the actions of the almighty, omnimax creator of the universe?

-Nick

Tom Sawyer · 12-20-2002, 07:10 AM

OK, I don't know that much about Purgatory, but this is the first that I've heard that there are flames there too. What's that about?

Theists come up with all sorts of nonsense about death. It's best just to ignore it and move on.

agapeo · 12-20-2002, 07:17 AM

atheist_in_foxhole,

I have no intention of defending the theological thinking of the RC, but in reading your post the thought occured to me that despite the outrage that you feel towards those who posit such nonsence concerning purgatory what remains is a bit of history of your grandparents. Good, bad or indifferent that in itself might be worth holding onto the papers you finally got around to reading. Evidently your grandparents must of had a different view towards the papers than you do. Right, wrong, or whatever, it was a part of what made your grandparents who they were. That's history. History that your children, and their children after them might be interested in knowing. Burn them if you must, but IMO life is filled with things we might wish to forget, but in doing so we are proned to make the same mistakes over again. I hope this makes some sense.

12-20-2002, 07:44 AM

I should mention that in addition to the Purgatory certificates, I found about three dozen books about xian apologetics, lives of the saints, the popes and so forth. There's even a copy of the Summa Theologica (sp?) that Gemma's always urging us to read.

12-20-2002, 04:28 AM	#1
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	Catholic nonsense My Catholic grandfather passed away a few years ago (my grandmother died a few years before he did), and last night I decided to finally look through some of the books/papers that he left me. I was shocked to discover about six or seven "certificates" that my Catholic relatives sent grandpa assuring him that they were praying on a daily basis so that my grandmother would be released from the flames of Purgatory. They promise that a special Mass will be held for my grandmother's soul, and there's also some nonsense about "spiritual privileges" that she will supposedly get in the afterlife. The certificates are all accompanied by a sickening picture of an emaciated, suffering (dead?) Jesus being cradled in his mother's arms. My grandmother was a wonderful, caring woman and it sickens me to know that so many of her relatives think that she was/is suffering in Purgatory simply because she wasn't good enough for Heaven. Don't get me wrong...I don't actually believe in these places, but it just pisses me off to know that others do. The "Purgatory" certificates are going in the recycle bin first thing in the morning. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

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12-20-2002, 04:38 AM	#2
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	It sounds to me that they cared about your grandmother a great deal. The motivation behind those certificates seems quite loving.

12-20-2002, 04:43 AM	#3
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	Don't get me started on how I feel about the myth of purgatory. Grrrrrrrr. Recycle bin is the best place for them, actually burning them or shredding them is even better.

12-20-2002, 04:54 AM	#4
I ate Pascal's Wafer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,460	Yeah, I can understand. I can sorta see the necessity of purgatory in their own worldview, and it's certainly better than sending the person to hell for eternity. Still, good people shouldn't require such punishment anyway. God should be able to forgive people without torturing them first. It's amazing to me how otherwise good people can worship a deity who would gleefully send our loved ones to torture for awhile because they weren't good enough for heaven. -Nick

12-20-2002, 05:30 AM	#5
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	It's even more amazing to think that God's decisions about where souls go can be influenced by a paper certificate. [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]</p>

12-20-2002, 05:48 AM	#6
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	If you HAVEN"T burned them yet, Person, I'd like to suggest that you stash those Horrible Examples away in some safe, non-incendiary place; to produce them 3 decades or so from now when the Cheuch (that human fiction) will have relinquished all that shit, as they have relinquished so much other shit very quietly w/o ever mentioning them. I happened to pick up a 4or5 decade-old textbook of "Moral Theology" (t.e. preVatican 2) which is rife w/ junk assertions that have been quietly discarded. Of course, the Teachers now teaching all that stuff learned what they know/teach from such sources.... The firing-squad may be the answer.

12-20-2002, 07:10 AM	#8
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	OK, I don't know that much about Purgatory, but this is the first that I've heard that there are flames there too. What's that about? Theists come up with all sorts of nonsense about death. It's best just to ignore it and move on.

12-20-2002, 07:17 AM	#9
agapeo Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: OH Posts: 376	atheist_in_foxhole, I have no intention of defending the theological thinking of the RC, but in reading your post the thought occured to me that despite the outrage that you feel towards those who posit such nonsence concerning purgatory what remains is a bit of history of your grandparents. Good, bad or indifferent that in itself might be worth holding onto the papers you finally got around to reading. Evidently your grandparents must of had a different view towards the papers than you do. Right, wrong, or whatever, it was a part of what made your grandparents who they were. That's history. History that your children, and their children after them might be interested in knowing. Burn them if you must, but IMO life is filled with things we might wish to forget, but in doing so we are proned to make the same mistakes over again. I hope this makes some sense.

12-20-2002, 07:44 AM	#10
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	I should mention that in addition to the Purgatory certificates, I found about three dozen books about xian apologetics, lives of the saints, the popes and so forth. There's even a copy of the Summa Theologica (sp?) that Gemma's always urging us to read.

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