Freethought & Rationalism Archive

malookiemaloo · 02-24-2003, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Animesh
Mmmm . . . Correction there: the New Testament tells us that the people that finally wrote down the stories genuinely believed that the disciples and followers of Jesus genuinely believed in the resurrection.

JFK was killed 40 years ago. Even with our much-much-better record keeping, I still hear some amazing speculations on that. From people that genuinely believe in their pet theory.

That's America for you!

malookiemaloo

worldling · 02-24-2003, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by malookiemaloo

Quote:

If it was faked, what happened to the body?

Who moved the stone?

Serious responses only please.

Again? These are different elements of the same story. The veracity of the story itself is in question; you cannot assume the truth of certain elements in order to prove the rest of it.

That's like saying, "If there was no Wizard of Oz, how do you explain the Yellow Brick Road?"

Seriously.

malookiemaloo · 02-24-2003, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by worldling
Originally posted by malookiemaloo

Again? These are different elements of the same story. The veracity of the story itself is in question; you cannot assume the truth of certain elements in order to prove the rest of it.

That's like saying, "If there was no Wizard of Oz, how do you explain the Yellow Brick Road?"

Seriously.

I agree with your logic but, nevertheless, the questions are valid.

malookiemaloo

worldling · 02-24-2003, 04:57 AM

Quote:

I agree with your logic but, nevertheless, the questions are valid.

Malookie, if you agree with my logic, then the questions are NOT valid.

The word "nevertheless" does not constitute a very convincing argument.

Clarice O'C · 02-24-2003, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
Are you suggesting that Jesus was not crucified?

Malookiemaloo

Hi Malookiemaloo,

I'm wondering what you think, e.g., about Jesus' supposed last words on the cross. The gospel writers have very different ideas about what he said. You would think that they would get it right about something so important:

- In Mark 15:34 Jesus crys, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

- In Matthew 27:46 we read the same.

- In Luke 23:46 Jesus' last words are, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

- In John 19:30 Jesus last words are, "It is finished!"

What's happening?

Best,
Clarice

malookiemaloo · 02-24-2003, 05:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clarice O'C
[B]Hi Malookiemaloo,

I'm wondering what you think, e.g., about Jesus' supposed last words on the cross. The gospel writers have very different ideas about what he said. You would think that they would get it right about something so important:

- In Mark 15:34 Jesus crys, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

- In Matthew 27:46 we read the same.

- In Luke 23:46 Jesus' last words are, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

- In John 19:30 Jesus last words are, "It is finished!"

What's happening?

When you add them all up, Jesus uttered seven sayings on the cross. No gospel writer includes them all. (In fact there are very few things which all the writers include-the feeding of the 5000 being the one whch immediately springs to mind).

To some it is a problem that the gospels are not a carbon copy of each other. However, I liken it to reporting on a football (soccer) match. Different reporters emphasise different aspects. Some will include details they consider worthy of a mention, others will exclude them. But they will all get the number of goals scored right!!

I suppose it all depends on the basic standpoint of the writers themselves. Matthew emphasises Jesus humanity, Mark his role as a servany, Luke I forget (status as King, I think) and John puts particular emphasis on His divinity. Therefore they are all bound to be different in presentation.

To return to Jesus on the cross. His last words were 'into your hands I commend my spirit' (more proof of us having spirits?)

I think He said 'it is finished' fairly early on.

Must do a study on this now!!

malookiemaloo

braces_for_impact · 02-24-2003, 06:11 AM

The problem is, the "goals" aren't matched between accounts in the books. They differ on som very important issues, like the geneology of Joseph, for instance. If you are tring to prove this man is the messiah, I would think establishing him to the House of David rather important.

malookiemaloo · 02-24-2003, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by braces_for_impact
The problem is, the "goals" aren't matched between accounts in the books. They differ on som very important issues, like the geneology of Joseph, for instance. If you are tring to prove this man is the messiah, I would think establishing him to the House of David rather important.

Can you refresh my memory on this.

As I recall, one gospel traces Jesus through Mary's line, another, Joseph's.

malookiemaloo

malookiemaloo · 02-24-2003, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by worldling
Malookie, if you agree with my logic, then the questions are NOT valid.

The word "nevertheless" does not constitute a very convincing argument.

OK. But if there had been no Wizard of OZ, there would have been no yellow brick road.

I am not saying that a moved stone or an empty tomb are proof of the resurrection in themselves but they are consistent with it. If the resurrection is to be disproved, the moved stone and empty tomb have to be explained-to say nothing of the resurrection appearances.

There is no point in saying that no one can rise from the dead therefore the empty tomb etc do not require an explanation.

malookiemaloo

worldling · 02-24-2003, 07:23 AM

Quote:

I am not saying that a moved stone or an empty tomb are proof of the resurrection in themselves but they are consistent with it. If the resurrection is to be disproved, the moved stone and empty tomb have to be explained-to say nothing of the resurrection appearances.

And I am not saying that the Yellow Brick Road is proof of the Wizard of Oz in itself, but it is consistent with it. If the Wizard of Oz is to be disproved, the Yellow Brick Road has to be explained - to say nothing of the Tin Man's new heart, the Lion's courage, and the Scarecrow's new brain.

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02-24-2003, 05:26 AM	#36
malookiemaloo Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: glasgow, scotland Posts: 356	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clarice O'C [B]Hi Malookiemaloo, I'm wondering what you think, e.g., about Jesus' supposed last words on the cross. The gospel writers have very different ideas about what he said. You would think that they would get it right about something so important: - In Mark 15:34 Jesus crys, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" - In Matthew 27:46 we read the same. - In Luke 23:46 Jesus' last words are, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." - In John 19:30 Jesus last words are, "It is finished!" What's happening? When you add them all up, Jesus uttered seven sayings on the cross. No gospel writer includes them all. (In fact there are very few things which all the writers include-the feeding of the 5000 being the one whch immediately springs to mind). To some it is a problem that the gospels are not a carbon copy of each other. However, I liken it to reporting on a football (soccer) match. Different reporters emphasise different aspects. Some will include details they consider worthy of a mention, others will exclude them. But they will all get the number of goals scored right!! I suppose it all depends on the basic standpoint of the writers themselves. Matthew emphasises Jesus humanity, Mark his role as a servany, Luke I forget (status as King, I think) and John puts particular emphasis on His divinity. Therefore they are all bound to be different in presentation. To return to Jesus on the cross. His last words were 'into your hands I commend my spirit' (more proof of us having spirits?) I think He said 'it is finished' fairly early on. Must do a study on this now!! malookiemaloo

02-24-2003, 06:11 AM	#37
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	The problem is, the "goals" aren't matched between accounts in the books. They differ on som very important issues, like the geneology of Joseph, for instance. If you are tring to prove this man is the messiah, I would think establishing him to the House of David rather important.

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