Jefferson

According to Christians, everybody's soul is immortal...and God is omnipotent!
If that is true then, could God destroy our souls...
(1) If yes then he is not caring or just, and our souls are not immortal, like God claims that they are...and Christians aren't as well off as they thought.
(2) If no, then God is not omnipotent, therefore he is not God. If that is the case the Christians are screwed. And their belief system crumbles...

But then again, let's all have faith...because that is the ultimate solution. If God is omniscient, then he knows the answer. I'm waiting for it.
If God uses this forum to answer the question, then he is God, but he must prove it without a shadow of a doubt...have faith fellow atheists...hehehehehehe!

Hans

Your question seems simular to the age old one:

Can god make a rock so heavy he can't lift it? They are omnipotent paradoxes.

Hans

I would even be so bold as to say that the very concept of omnipotence is self refuting, thus demonstrating it is mere human concept. A flawed concept at that!

GunnerJ

Sorry, but I have to play Jebus' advocate when I see weak arguments like this.

The fact that I can paint a red wall green doesn't mean it ain't a red wall. Too bad.

Jefferson

Romstalker--uh, alright. After I get through laughing at that EXTREMELY flawed argument, I might respond, maybe, but probably not.
I learned my colors in kindergarten. Did you?

Datheron

Jefferson,

Um....all Rimstalker was trying to put forward is the concept that individual perception is not always accurate. For a person that is color-blind, there is no difference between red and green.

Sir Nevah Entitar

I don't see how this is in any way a metaphor for God's omnipotence. Nobody ever said the wall had to be red forever and ever and ever... Technically, though, if you DID paint the wall green, it would then be a green wall, as we base our definition of what color the wall is on what color it is on the outside.

Maybe a better consequence of option (1) is in order...

If God CAN destroy our souls, then they are not immortal as he says they are, and thus God has lied, and as lieing is a sin, God has sinned. God cannot sin, as he is the definition of being good, thus God has contradicted himself. But God is infallible, so this cannot be. So he obviously can't exist as he contradicts his very definition as a god twice.

Option (2) works.

Right, but we're talking about people who can see color here.

BLoggins02

(Also playing God's advocate...)

The part about being non caring or just is non sequiter, it doesn't follow that just because God COULD destroy our souls, He WILL do so. The second part of this argument hinges on the question "Can God perform a logical impossibility?" Can God make a square circle? Can God make a pineapple that smells purple?

The question "can God destroy an immortal soul" may be nonsensical if we define "immortal" to mean "incapable of being destroyed", then the question becomes "can God destroy an object that is incapable of being destroyed?", and doesn't really seem to carry much semantic meaning.

The question of how God could logically create that which could never be destroyed is a far more interesting question.

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: BLoggins02 ]</p>

sighhswolf

What you fail to bring out here is the fact that
the entire concept of god is without cognitive content.
There is no definition of god. Theologians will tell you that gods essence is his existence.
We sometimes make the error of listing attributes
as definitions of god.
All the theological hoop jumping to assign to god attributes that christians can understand does not define WHAT god is.
Impressive sounding words like omnipotent and omniscient cannot give substance to the christian god, nor does it define the "undefinable".
What happens is that the basic concepts that we as humans use to comprehend reality and understand the natural world in which we live
are for all practical purposes null and void when applied to the christian god.
In order to try and salvage this god from the "unknowable" and the "indefinable" theologians
attempt to assign all of these traits, attributes
and characteristics to this entity so that the average christian can be given some form of reference as to the nature of the being.

Christianity claims their god is a "being"--but,
he does not occupy space, he does not have dimensions, and he cannot be perceived, measured
or detected in any way that is acceptable to scientific standards, therefore he is "inconcievable" to the finite mind of man.
So it is quite impossible for mankind to comprehend this entity as he is presented.
The christian god could only be comprehended by an "infinite intellect" like himself.
So it would seem that this what ever it is god,
simply cannot be defined and understandable to mere humans.
The trick most used by clergy is the "negative"
attributes of this being, in other words we dont know what he is, but we can certainly tell you what he is not.
So discussing gods omnipotence and/or omniscience
is counterproductive because those "attributes"
cannot logically be defended.

Just a thought...

Wolf

edited for extremely poor spelling..yuck.

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: sighhswolf ]</p>

Theli

sighhswolf...
This is what makes faith in god so much more questionable. If he really is inconcievable aswell as undetectable then how can some "know" he exists?
I would rather think that "god" is an invention by humans way of percieving their reality. Just like luck, luck is just an invention of the human mind based on unlikely observations.
Gods can, and has been applied to all events wich is incomprehencable to man. From thunder in the dark ages, all the way to Quantum Physics today.

This is abit weird, don't you think?
You are applying attributes to a being youself claim to be "inconcievable" to the finite mind of man.
BTW, how can intelligence really be infinite?
How can you, by observing a being's actions reach the conclusion that it's intelligence is infinite?
If his intelligence really was infinite, then his action would have to be even more "thought out" and intelligent then it already is (why would he make a dumber choice?). Wich is ofcourse a paradox in itself.
I have another problem with god's infinity. Some say that god has always existed. But if that is true and the chain of events prior to our own existance would be infinite, then we would never exist.
How can something be after forever?

BLoggins02...
That depends on how you look at it. If you look at it as a question then it doesn't carry much meaning, no. The question provides it's own answer.
But if you look at it as the paradox it is, I say it does have significant meaning. The soul cannot be indestructable and be destroyed at the same time.