Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Calzaer · 07-06-2003, 11:14 AM

Posted off-topically in "Some (very ignorant) Questions", in reference to Adam and Eve:

Why not create them with full knowledge of everything? That way, they'd've known disobeying God was bad (something they couldn't possibly have known without disobeying God in the first place).

That's one thing I've never understood... why didn't God want humans to know the difference between Good and Evil. If he was All Good in the first place, he'd WANT humans to know his true nature... the only reason he'd want to conceal the difference between Good and Evil is if he himself was evil, and didn't want humans to know. Hmm.

**

To take that a bit further, look at all nasty thing God does personally. Hardens peoples' hearts so he can do nasty things to them (Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 7:13-14, 7:22, and various places in chapters 10, 11, and 14), makes promises he can't/won't keep (which some would call lying) (Genesis 4:12 in relation to Genesis 4:16-17, Genesis 17:8, in reference to Joshua 16:10 and Hebrews 11:13, Deuteronomy 7:1, 2 Samuel 7:13,16, 2 Kings 22:20 in reference to 2 Chronicles 35:23-24, and dozens more), kills off the almost entire human race in a fit of rage, destroys cities, performs abortions (Hosea 9:16 an 13:16), orders (and helps perform) massive genocides for no reason other than "Wrong Place Wrong Time" (Caananites, Jebusites, etc), and, worst of all, maintains his own private torture palace for people who refuse to bow down to him (and, according to the Protestants, that's the ONLY REQUIREMENT).

It's obvious that this God, or at least the one presented in the Old Testament, is thouroughly evil. To quote Jesus, "You shall know them by their fruits", Matthew 7:16. Let's look at God's fruits. Death, murder, destruction, pain, suffering, torture, humiliation, and lies. The people willing to blindly follow him are rewarded, everyone else is thrown into the universe's largest concentration camp. Why does God suddenly sound like Stalin to a power of 100?

Even if such a being existed, no person with a working concience would worship it. After all, we have the knowledge of Good and Evil (which this God didn't want us to have), and we can see that this God and all his acts are hideously Evil.

TiredJim · 07-06-2003, 12:03 PM

If you want to talk about things God could have done to improve life, why stop there? Why not start by not creating a life system that involves survival by killing other living things? Why not make all animals at peace, and take away virii, as well as the necessity of having them? Why not take change the physics that currently cause thunderstorms and floods and other such natural disorders?

God's creation left a lot to be desired.

Jeremiah · 07-06-2003, 09:59 PM

Do you consider a judge, who follows the rules of law and orders a criminal to be executed, evil? Is all punishment evil? Or is some punishment deserving and righteous?

winstonjen · 07-06-2003, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremiah
Do you consider a judge, who follows the rules of law and orders a criminal to be executed, evil? Is all punishment evil? Or is some punishment deserving and righteous?

A judge has to be accountable for his own actions and be judged accordingly. The Biblical depiction of god does not, and is not deserving of worship.

Calzaer · 07-06-2003, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Do you consider a judge, who follows the rules of law and orders a criminal to be executed, evil?

Did this hypothetical judge also create the law, and the law is "If you don't suck up to the judge, you'll be executed"?

If so, then yes.

Doctor X · 07-07-2003, 02:21 AM

Congratulations!

You have rediscovered Gnosticism!

My personal favorite:

Quote:

Their chief [God.--Ed.] is blind; [because of his] power and his ignorance [and his] arrogance he said, with his [power], "It is I who am God; there is none [appart from me]."

When he said this, he sinned against [the entirety]. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samuel"--which is, "god of the blind."

"The Hypostasis of the Archons," Layton B trans., in Robinson JM ed. The Nag Hammadi Library.

--J.D.

Jeremiah · 07-07-2003, 05:32 AM

Do you see law as good or evil? If it benefits one�s person, we may consider it good. If it goes against us, we may consider it evil. So is the problem with the law or in the eye of the beholder?

If God created this world and set the rules, then He has the power to judge us as He sees fit. If God doesn�t exist, then there are no rules but what we ourselves make.

Judges 21

25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.

Calzaer · 07-07-2003, 02:13 PM

Quote:

If God created this world and set the rules, then He has the power to judge us as He sees fit.

Ok, but "as he sees fit" is clearly evil. You can substitute the word "God" in the above sentence with the word "Stalin", and substitute "world" for "Russia", and you'd have basically the same sentence. That doesn't mean it's GOOD.

God's fruits are evil. The law God created is evil. The fact that God didn't want us to know the difference between good and evil is a decent indication that he's doing evil.

I deny the concept of "Anything God does is good, because God is good, so when God orders abortions, that's good." If there was no objective good aside from God, the Tree of Knowledge would have been completely superfluous. Furthermore, if God is the definition of "good", why did he say "Man is become as one of us, to know good from evil"? He's obviously referring to an objective meta-good and meta-evil apart from His Word(tm); if not, there would be no evil because God is all good, and thus anything he did would be good. Knowing good from evil would be impossible; there would be no evil by definition.

Atticus_Finch · 07-07-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TiredJim
If you want to talk about things God could have done to improve life, why stop there? Why not start by not creating a life system that involves survival by killing other living things? Why not make all animals at peace, and take away virii, as well as the necessity of having them? Why not take change the physics that currently cause thunderstorms and floods and other such natural disorders?

God's creation left a lot to be desired.

FYI, Christians believe that God's creation did not include any of the things of which you complain. These things did not exist until sin entered the world through man.

Regards,

Atticus Finch

Jeremiah · 07-07-2003, 07:02 PM

Assuming that God created the world and his �fruits are evil� as you state, then is all creation evil? If all creation is not evil, then how did good come into the world?

07-06-2003, 11:14 AM	#1
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	A cross-posted Adam & Eve Question Posted off-topically in "Some (very ignorant) Questions", in reference to Adam and Eve: Why not create them with full knowledge of everything? That way, they'd've known disobeying God was bad (something they couldn't possibly have known without disobeying God in the first place). That's one thing I've never understood... why didn't God want humans to know the difference between Good and Evil. If he was All Good in the first place, he'd WANT humans to know his true nature... the only reason he'd want to conceal the difference between Good and Evil is if he himself was evil, and didn't want humans to know. Hmm. ** To take that a bit further, look at all nasty thing God does personally. Hardens peoples' hearts so he can do nasty things to them (Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 7:13-14, 7:22, and various places in chapters 10, 11, and 14), makes promises he can't/won't keep (which some would call lying) (Genesis 4:12 in relation to Genesis 4:16-17, Genesis 17:8, in reference to Joshua 16:10 and Hebrews 11:13, Deuteronomy 7:1, 2 Samuel 7:13,16, 2 Kings 22:20 in reference to 2 Chronicles 35:23-24, and dozens more), kills off the almost entire human race in a fit of rage, destroys cities, performs abortions (Hosea 9:16 an 13:16), orders (and helps perform) massive genocides for no reason other than "Wrong Place Wrong Time" (Caananites, Jebusites, etc), and, worst of all, maintains his own private torture palace for people who refuse to bow down to him (and, according to the Protestants, that's the ONLY REQUIREMENT). It's obvious that this God, or at least the one presented in the Old Testament, is thouroughly evil. To quote Jesus, "You shall know them by their fruits", Matthew 7:16. Let's look at God's fruits. Death, murder, destruction, pain, suffering, torture, humiliation, and lies. The people willing to blindly follow him are rewarded, everyone else is thrown into the universe's largest concentration camp. Why does God suddenly sound like Stalin to a power of 100? Even if such a being existed, no person with a working concience would worship it. After all, we have the knowledge of Good and Evil (which this God didn't want us to have), and we can see that this God and all his acts are hideously Evil.

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07-06-2003, 12:03 PM	#2
TiredJim Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: here, sometimes there Posts: 71	If you want to talk about things God could have done to improve life, why stop there? Why not start by not creating a life system that involves survival by killing other living things? Why not make all animals at peace, and take away virii, as well as the necessity of having them? Why not take change the physics that currently cause thunderstorms and floods and other such natural disorders? God's creation left a lot to be desired.

07-06-2003, 09:59 PM	#3
Jeremiah Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 16	Do you consider a judge, who follows the rules of law and orders a criminal to be executed, evil? Is all punishment evil? Or is some punishment deserving and righteous?

07-07-2003, 05:32 AM	#7
Jeremiah Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 16	Do you see law as good or evil? If it benefits one�s person, we may consider it good. If it goes against us, we may consider it evil. So is the problem with the law or in the eye of the beholder? If God created this world and set the rules, then He has the power to judge us as He sees fit. If God doesn�t exist, then there are no rules but what we ourselves make. Judges 21 25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.

07-07-2003, 07:02 PM	#10
Jeremiah Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 16	Assuming that God created the world and his �fruits are evil� as you state, then is all creation evil? If all creation is not evil, then how did good come into the world?

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