Hastur

He's a-scared of me.
(And my half-brother, our cousin and the Ones who imprisoned us all eons ago.)
Quite the little chickensh*t he is.

luvluv

"Huh? I thought one of this God's main goals was to "influence" people's decision making?? If this is not a goal, then I fail to see why it would ever do anything at all."

Influence on the basis of his love and compassion, not on the basis of his power.

"Don't you believe God exists? If so, doesn't this have a coercive affect upon your thoughts and actions? History shows us that beliefs often have very coercive affects on people.

Thus I would conclude that disbelief in any deity would be far more appropriate. This way, your decisions could be as free as they could possibly be."


I think we are missing each other. To believe or not to believe in God is a DECISION. It is the decision that defines all of our other decisions, if we really believe or disbelieve. Right now, that decision is a CHOICE, but if God were to come out of "hiding" that would not longer be a choice. The initial choice to believe or not to believe is a free choice, equally free regardless of which route one choices. It is the ESSENTIAL decision, and the decisions that flow from it (obeying God's rules because He exists and is loving or disobeying God's rules because He doesn't exist) are simply a function of logic.

That first choice to believe or disbelieve is what gives meaning and context to all the other choices. Without that first choice, much of our ability to make our decisions would not exist.

you say:

"But if its concerned that we would be "coerced" into making a decision if its existence and desires are known to be true, then for all intents and purposes it might as well not exist at all. Its desires are at cross purposes with each other."

You are excluding the concept of Faith. God giving his creation the ability to know Him by faith, then establishing the conduit of Faith as the only means by which He can (and will) communicate His existence, and then by allowing that Faith to be a decision, all this allows for people to know and experience Him freely if He so chooses, and allows him to influence people who desire His influence.

You are mistaken to think that God wants to influence people so badly that He would doggedly and overtly influence people who did not want to be influenced. You are also underestimating omnipotence: obviously, if an omnipotent being wanted to influence you He could do so in a way in which He could not be resisted if he chose to. So at the outset, God would have to limit the extent of His influence if any of our choices are to truly be free. The observable presence of omnipotence might be too great an influence on our decision making to consider our decisions truly free.

Clarice:

"Seriously, I submit that in general, people don't even have the capacity to choose what they believe in or what they love."

I do believe people can choose whether or not to truly be open to the possibility of belief in a God. I think that's all He requires and He will do the rest.

(I'll take it easy on ya, since I'm from Wilmington. Go Seahawks )

Free-thinker says:

"luvluv: How does the existence of the bible and the fact that it mentions hell and god's wrath fail to meet your definition of coersion?"

Because you are able to make the decision not to believe in hell or God's wrath. Now imagine the same Bible exists and you have no choice as to whether or not to believe in God. See the difference?

"Why not just remove the threat of hell and reveal himself?"

As I said before, you assume that hell is a threat. Many Christian thinkers think that Hell is simply what you become if you choose to seek your own good at the expense of others for too long. I think Hell is mostly what happens to you as a result of your choices. I've felt hate and anger, and I think hell is what happens to you if you choose to hold onto your hate and anger and you refuse to forgive people for all eternity. I think if you make this decision of your own free will, there is nothing God can do for you at that point. You are assuming God assigns you to Hell, but I think people choose it, little by little, everyday.

Skeptical

Simply choosing to believe something in the absence of evidence or the presence of contradictory evidence is nothing more than wishful thinking. It's tantamount to "doublethink" (you choose to believe something and then you forget that you chose it) and only the mind of someone with no intellectual integrity can fool themselves in this fashion.

In any case, even if belief were a choice, your logic is still flawed. Let's posit that God exists and that everyone believes God exists. How, exactly, is that supposed to affect us. Are you saying that we would all automatically obey the same set of rules of behavior?

A cursory glance of history shows that this is absolutely false. There are more Christian sects than you can shake a stick at. Supposedly they all at least agree that God exists and they even agree on the same set of religous documents, yet they have serious differences about practical appliation of that knowledge.

God could perfectly well reveal himself/herself/itself and not give any other information except that existence. This would in no way coerce someone to follow a particular sects set of rules and practices. God could simply pop in every now and then and say hello and then be on his way. Where is the coercion to follow particular rules or standards of behavior?

You are making a lot of unwarranted assumptions.

madmax2976

The bible disagrees with you. According to it, the bibliical deity often attempted to coerce people in some powerful fashion. The threat of hell, for instance, is entirely about forceful coercion.

<strong> Fine, but you've agreed that my "decision" not to believe is a reasonable one so we appear to have little to debate about in the area of God's existence.

<strong> If true, then this deity obviously values the ability to choose above any choices we actually do make. So again, it seems to me that disbelief is the best option as it leaves one completely free to make choices.

<strong> But again, if this is all true, my "choice" to be an atheist is completely reasonable. Therefore I have just as much meaning and context as anyone else simply by the act of making a free choice.

<strong> Yes I do exclude faith. It is an extremely poor tool for discerning truth from non-truth. To me the very definition of "faith" prohibits "knowing" a God, since if you did know one existed, it wouldn't be faith, it would be actual knowledge. You either have faith in a diety or you know about a deity - not both.

<strong> Ah, so you don't agree with many of the biblical stories in which the deity forcably coerced many peoples, including its own, to go along with its wishes. This is good.

<strong> Well certainly. But if the being specified that no harm would come to me if I didn't do as it wished, and I was still able to use my own judgement as to whether I should do anything it wanted, then all would be fine. If the deity directed me or anyone else to do something I considered improper, such as genocide, then I would be free to speak up and refuse to participate - and argue that others should refuse to participate as well.

<strong>[quote]
So at the outset, God would have to limit the extent of His influence if any of our choices are to truly be free. The observable presence of omnipotence might be too great an influence on our decision making to consider our decisions truly free.
</strong>[quote]

But again you discount much of the bible where the deity did that very thing regardless. I can only conclude that the deity you believe in is much different than that portrayed in the bible. This is also a good thing.

britinusa

.

Perhaps he's shy. Or even worse, maybe he's suffering from Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD for short). I recommend either Paxil or Effexor.
See? Atheists CAN be compassionate.

Automaton

luvluv: It is not my "free choice" to "deny" your God. One cannot "deny" something, if that thing does not exist. My experiences and my search for the truth lead me to disbelieve. My only free choice was to try to find out what is true. Therefore, if God does indeed exist, it IS my free choice to accept him! "Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life now? Open my eyes, blind me with your light now," as the Tool song goes. So why does he still remain hidden to me?

WJ

Samhain!

You said:

"Because we think about it reasonably, logically, and rationally, and leave no rock unturned, so to speak. While theists are convinced by their emotions as it is something that one must "feel." Utter nonsense, since emotions cannot be measured in that form."

Please tell us how logic proves the *metaphysical* existence or non existence of God!? and tell us how logic leaves no rock unturned!?

I'm afraid, once again, the atheist is selling another religion-logic. Which, when it comes to God, fails. (Just like the ontological argument fails for the theist.)

Yikes, hear we go again, another objective rationalist... .

Walrus

Clarice

OK. I actually am open to the possibility that a god exists. Does this mean that I will go to heaven regardless of my actual belief? That would at least be a nicer god than many Christians seem to worship.

Theli

"Salvation comes after a lifetime of submission"

A nicer god can't possibly exist. If a nicer god existed, the world would be a better place. The only god that could possibly exist is one that hides.

luvluv

Automaton:

"luvluv: It is not my "free choice" to "deny" your God. One cannot "deny" something, if that thing does not exist. My experiences and my search for the truth lead me to disbelieve. My only free choice was to try to find out what is true. Therefore, if God does indeed exist, it IS my free choice to accept him! "Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life now? Open my eyes, blind me with your light now," as the Tool song goes. So why does he still remain hidden to me?"

Keep your eyes peeled Automaton. It's not like ringing a doorbell. Stay on the look out. And when something happens, you will again have to decide whether or not to believe it was God or coincidence.