Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 05-25-2002, 10:55 PM

I'm sure that Ed, our favorite wildlife biologist, will find these questions to be enjoyable reading, and I'm sure that he will come up with excellent answers for them.

Noah's Ark was 450 feet long, longer than the largest wooden ships built in modern times -- which are very leaky. Could a vessel that size be made seaworthy?

Getting to the Ark:
(Some don't travel very well) Could animals have traveled from elsewhere?
(Some sets of species do not coexist very well) Could animals have all lived near Noah?
(Lots and lots of animals...) How was the Ark loaded?

Fitting the Animals Aboard:
What is a created kind?
What kinds were aboard the ark?.
Were dinosaurs and other extinct animals on the ark?
Were the animals aboard the ark mature?
How many clean animals were on the ark?
So, could they all fit?

Caring for the Animals:
Special diets.
Fresh foods.
Food preservation/Pest control.
Ventilation.
Sanitation.
Exercise/Animal handling.
Manpower for feeding, watering, etc.

The Flood Itself:
Where did the Flood water come from, and where did it go?
(Vapor canopy? Hydroplate? Comet? Runaway subduction? New ocean basins?

Implications of a Flood:
How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?
Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series?
How are the polar ice caps even possible?
Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors?
Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating?

Producing the Geological Record:
Why are geological eras consistent worldwide?
How was the fossil record sorted in an order convenient for evolution?
(Sorting of rooted-in-place, hydrodynamically-similar, and ecologically-similar organisms...)
How do surface features appear far from the surface?
(Rain drops. River channels. Wind-blown dunes. Beaches. Glacial deposits. Burrows. In-place trees. Soil. Desiccation cracks. Footprints. Meteorites and meteor craters. Coral reefs. Cave systems.)
How could these have appeared in the midst of a catastrophic flood?
How does a global flood explain angular unconformities?
How were mountains and valleys formed?
When did granite batholiths form?
How can a single flood be responsible for such extensively detailed layering?
How do you explain the formation of varves?
How could a flood deposit layered fossil forests?
(From magma, limestone formation, craters, etc.) Where did all the heat go?
How were limestone deposits formed?
How could a flood have deposited chalk?
How could the Flood deposit layers of solid salt?
How were sedimentary deposits recrystallized and plastically deformed in the short time since the Flood?
How were hematite layers laid down?
How do you explain fossil mineralization?
How are these observations explained by a sorted deposition of remains in a single episode of global flooding?
(Measuring the Earth's spindown rate) How does a flood explain the accuracy of "coral clocks"?
Where were all the fossilized animals when they were alive?
(Too many to be supported by the available land plants?)
Where did all the organic material in the fossil record come from?
How do you explain the relative commonness of aquatic fossils?

Species Survival and Post-Flood Ecology.
How did all the modern plant species survive?
(Many of them have poor salt-tolerance)
How did all the fish survive?
(They vary widely in salt-tolerance and salt-absence-tolerance)
How did sensitive marine life such as coral survive?
How did diseases survive?
How did short-lived species survive?
How could more than a handful of species survive in a devastated habitat?
How did predators survive?
(What would they have eaten?)
How could more than a handful of species survive random influences that affect populations?

Species Distribution and Diversity:
How did animals get to their present ranges?
How were ecological interdependencies preserved as animals migrated from Ararat?
Why are so many animals found only in limited ranges?
Why is inbreeding depression not a problem in most species?
(A set of 2 individuals can easily be unlucky enough to have some bad genes)

Historical Aspects:
Why is there no mention of the Flood in the records of Egyptian or Mesopotamian civilizations which existed at the time?
How did the human population rebound so fast?
Why do other flood myths vary so greatly from the Genesis account?
Why should we expect Genesis to be accurate?

Logical, Philosophical, and Theological Points:
Are flood models consistent with the Bible?
(Some creationists claim that Noah's Flood had caused a mass extinction, etc.)
How can a literal interpretation be appropriate if the text is self-contradictory?
(One or seven pairs of certain species?)
How can a literal interpretation be consistent with reality?
(Some species do not have two separate sexes)
Why stop with the Flood story?
(Earth being flat and stationary)
In fact, is there any reason at all why the Flood story should be taken literally?
Does a global flood make the whole Bible less credible?
Does the Flood story indicate an omnipotent God?
Finally, even if the flood model weren't riddled by all these problems, why should we accept it?

The list of questions in this posting comes from <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.htm" target="_blank">this Noah's Flood article</a>, with a bit of rewriting here and there.

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

Duvenoy · 05-26-2002, 02:15 AM

Can I play, too? Or does Ed get to have all the fun?

The alledged ark would not have lasted much longer that it took to get the thing launched. It would have been way, way over-loaded and, as I believe I've mentioned elsewhere, these would not have been calm seas.

Back when the ark was supposed to have been built, wooden vessle construction was very different from what it would be some centuries later. Iron and bronze for fasteners was at a preimum and not to be wasted on such minor items as nails for strakes (the planks forming the sides, for y'all land-lubbers). These were actually lashed together with cordage. In fact, it was not a bad method and produced some excellent, coastal vessels, and it is still done by fishermen in parts of the mid-east today.

But for a ship the size of the ark, it wouldn't work. At 450 feet, there would have been a lot of twisting motion as well as the usual pitch and roll.

Especally as the ark seems to have had no steerage, at least none that I can find in any literature. As the waters rose, he ship would have floated (maybe), broached (definatly), and broken up (for damn sure!), with all hands and cargo lost; and just about as quickly as it takes to tell it.

"Oh, it's roll and toss and pound and pitch,
And creak and groan ya son of a bitch,
Oh, it's a hell of a life on a destroyer!"

The ark story was not concieved by a sailor, no matter how drunk he might have gotten beforehand.

d

Daydreamer · 05-26-2002, 02:58 AM

I read an interesting piece by Asimov on the subject - He favors a meteor, about city-buster size, hiting in the Persian Gulf and causing a tidal wave up towards the Mesopotamian Delta.

Although I prefer leaving the causative force open (seaquake, perhaps?), the rest of his argument makes sense:

-Mount Sinai, Noah's landing, is on the far side of the delta from the gulf, right where a tidal wave would sweep things.
-A quake or meteor outside the gulf would explain similar but differing stories elsewhere (one involving travel over the Ocean to the East is one I vaguely remember from China).

gallo · 05-26-2002, 02:01 PM

More on wood ships and Noah's ark.

<a href="http://home.houston.rr.com/bybayouu/Noahs_ark.html" target="_blank">THAT BOAT DON'T FLOAT</a>

Javaman · 05-26-2002, 02:13 PM

Well, of course you can prove Anything with logic

Deimos · 05-26-2002, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gallo:
<strong>More on wood ships and Noah's ark.

<a href="http://home.houston.rr.com/bybayouu/Noahs_ark.html" target="_blank">THAT BOAT DON'T FLOAT</a></strong>

Look, man, you're not thinking like a creationist. The ark was built from gopher wood. Obviously gopher wood had the requisite properties, otherwise we wouldn't be here! It's just unfortunate that we don't have any gopher wood today, but rest assured, since the babble mentions this material it must have existed.

As far as pumping out the ark goes, it's obvious - elephants were used as bilge pumps. Their trunks could easily raise the head of water enough to pump it out the ark.

See, creation wins again

.

gallo · 05-26-2002, 05:16 PM

Didn't kc used to claim that it was reasonable to assume that gopher wood was not a kind of tree, but something like plywood? Why not? If you can believe in the flood, and believe in the ark, why not plywood 4500 years ago?

Coragyps · 05-26-2002, 05:25 PM

I learned the Noah story from the Revised Standard Version, and it seems to me that they called it "shittim wood." Maybe that's the proper translation, and the author (Moses?) was jus' a shittim' us the whole time.

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]</p>

Duvenoy · 05-26-2002, 05:56 PM

Look, man, you're not thinking like a creationist. The ark was built from gopher wood. Obviously gopher wood had the requisite properties, otherwise we wouldn't be here! It's just unfortunate that we don't have any gopher wood today, but rest assured, since the babble mentions this material it must have existed.

Sounds like some great material for most any building project. I wonder what do it go fer?

d

nogods4me · 05-26-2002, 06:29 PM

well when I go fer wood, i usually try the home depot first.

05-25-2002, 10:55 PM	#1
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Noah's Flood Questions I'm sure that Ed, our favorite wildlife biologist, will find these questions to be enjoyable reading, and I'm sure that he will come up with excellent answers for them. Noah's Ark was 450 feet long, longer than the largest wooden ships built in modern times -- which are very leaky. Could a vessel that size be made seaworthy? Getting to the Ark: (Some don't travel very well) Could animals have traveled from elsewhere? (Some sets of species do not coexist very well) Could animals have all lived near Noah? (Lots and lots of animals...) How was the Ark loaded? Fitting the Animals Aboard: What is a created kind? What kinds were aboard the ark?. Were dinosaurs and other extinct animals on the ark? Were the animals aboard the ark mature? How many clean animals were on the ark? So, could they all fit? Caring for the Animals: Special diets. Fresh foods. Food preservation/Pest control. Ventilation. Sanitation. Exercise/Animal handling. Manpower for feeding, watering, etc. The Flood Itself: Where did the Flood water come from, and where did it go? (Vapor canopy? Hydroplate? Comet? Runaway subduction? New ocean basins? Implications of a Flood: How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood? Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? How are the polar ice caps even possible? Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Producing the Geological Record: Why are geological eras consistent worldwide? How was the fossil record sorted in an order convenient for evolution? (Sorting of rooted-in-place, hydrodynamically-similar, and ecologically-similar organisms...) How do surface features appear far from the surface? (Rain drops. River channels. Wind-blown dunes. Beaches. Glacial deposits. Burrows. In-place trees. Soil. Desiccation cracks. Footprints. Meteorites and meteor craters. Coral reefs. Cave systems.) How could these have appeared in the midst of a catastrophic flood? How does a global flood explain angular unconformities? How were mountains and valleys formed? When did granite batholiths form? How can a single flood be responsible for such extensively detailed layering? How do you explain the formation of varves? How could a flood deposit layered fossil forests? (From magma, limestone formation, craters, etc.) Where did all the heat go? How were limestone deposits formed? How could a flood have deposited chalk? How could the Flood deposit layers of solid salt? How were sedimentary deposits recrystallized and plastically deformed in the short time since the Flood? How were hematite layers laid down? How do you explain fossil mineralization? How are these observations explained by a sorted deposition of remains in a single episode of global flooding? (Measuring the Earth's spindown rate) How does a flood explain the accuracy of "coral clocks"? Where were all the fossilized animals when they were alive? (Too many to be supported by the available land plants?) Where did all the organic material in the fossil record come from? How do you explain the relative commonness of aquatic fossils? Species Survival and Post-Flood Ecology. How did all the modern plant species survive? (Many of them have poor salt-tolerance) How did all the fish survive? (They vary widely in salt-tolerance and salt-absence-tolerance) How did sensitive marine life such as coral survive? How did diseases survive? How did short-lived species survive? How could more than a handful of species survive in a devastated habitat? How did predators survive? (What would they have eaten?) How could more than a handful of species survive random influences that affect populations? Species Distribution and Diversity: How did animals get to their present ranges? How were ecological interdependencies preserved as animals migrated from Ararat? Why are so many animals found only in limited ranges? Why is inbreeding depression not a problem in most species? (A set of 2 individuals can easily be unlucky enough to have some bad genes) Historical Aspects: Why is there no mention of the Flood in the records of Egyptian or Mesopotamian civilizations which existed at the time? How did the human population rebound so fast? Why do other flood myths vary so greatly from the Genesis account? Why should we expect Genesis to be accurate? Logical, Philosophical, and Theological Points: Are flood models consistent with the Bible? (Some creationists claim that Noah's Flood had caused a mass extinction, etc.) How can a literal interpretation be appropriate if the text is self-contradictory? (One or seven pairs of certain species?) How can a literal interpretation be consistent with reality? (Some species do not have two separate sexes) Why stop with the Flood story? (Earth being flat and stationary) In fact, is there any reason at all why the Flood story should be taken literally? Does a global flood make the whole Bible less credible? Does the Flood story indicate an omnipotent God? Finally, even if the flood model weren't riddled by all these problems, why should we accept it? The list of questions in this posting comes from <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.htm" target="_blank">this Noah's Flood article</a>, with a bit of rewriting here and there. [ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

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05-26-2002, 02:15 AM	#2
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Can I play, too? Or does Ed get to have all the fun? The alledged ark would not have lasted much longer that it took to get the thing launched. It would have been way, way over-loaded and, as I believe I've mentioned elsewhere, these would not have been calm seas. Back when the ark was supposed to have been built, wooden vessle construction was very different from what it would be some centuries later. Iron and bronze for fasteners was at a preimum and not to be wasted on such minor items as nails for strakes (the planks forming the sides, for y'all land-lubbers). These were actually lashed together with cordage. In fact, it was not a bad method and produced some excellent, coastal vessels, and it is still done by fishermen in parts of the mid-east today. But for a ship the size of the ark, it wouldn't work. At 450 feet, there would have been a lot of twisting motion as well as the usual pitch and roll. Especally as the ark seems to have had no steerage, at least none that I can find in any literature. As the waters rose, he ship would have floated (maybe), broached (definatly), and broken up (for damn sure!), with all hands and cargo lost; and just about as quickly as it takes to tell it. "Oh, it's roll and toss and pound and pitch, And creak and groan ya son of a bitch, Oh, it's a hell of a life on a destroyer!" The ark story was not concieved by a sailor, no matter how drunk he might have gotten beforehand. d

05-26-2002, 02:58 AM	#3
Daydreamer Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 221	I read an interesting piece by Asimov on the subject - He favors a meteor, about city-buster size, hiting in the Persian Gulf and causing a tidal wave up towards the Mesopotamian Delta. Although I prefer leaving the causative force open (seaquake, perhaps?), the rest of his argument makes sense: -Mount Sinai, Noah's landing, is on the far side of the delta from the gulf, right where a tidal wave would sweep things. -A quake or meteor outside the gulf would explain similar but differing stories elsewhere (one involving travel over the Ocean to the East is one I vaguely remember from China).

05-26-2002, 02:01 PM	#4
gallo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Houston, TX, US Posts: 244	More on wood ships and Noah's ark. <a href="http://home.houston.rr.com/bybayouu/Noahs_ark.html" target="_blank">THAT BOAT DON'T FLOAT</a>

05-26-2002, 02:13 PM	#5
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	Well, of course you can prove Anything with logic

05-26-2002, 05:16 PM	#7
gallo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Houston, TX, US Posts: 244	Didn't kc used to claim that it was reasonable to assume that gopher wood was not a kind of tree, but something like plywood? Why not? If you can believe in the flood, and believe in the ark, why not plywood 4500 years ago?

05-26-2002, 05:25 PM	#8
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	I learned the Noah story from the Revised Standard Version, and it seems to me that they called it "shittim wood." Maybe that's the proper translation, and the author (Moses?) was jus' a shittim' us the whole time. [ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Coragyps ]</p>

05-26-2002, 05:56 PM	#9
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Look, man, you're not thinking like a creationist. The ark was built from gopher wood. Obviously gopher wood had the requisite properties, otherwise we wouldn't be here! It's just unfortunate that we don't have any gopher wood today, but rest assured, since the babble mentions this material it must have existed. Sounds like some great material for most any building project. I wonder what do it go fer? d

05-26-2002, 06:29 PM	#10
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	well when I go fer wood, i usually try the home depot first.

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