Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Karen M · 07-20-2002, 05:01 PM

Greetings all

I am under the impression that one of the differences between protestants and catholics is that protestants believe you are "saved" by faith alone and not works. If this is a misrepresentation feel free to correct me.

Isn't the definition of "work" in this context something that you must do to get into Heaven? Such as an action or some rule you must follow?

How does having faith not qualify as a work?

FunkyRes · 07-20-2002, 06:36 PM

A work was an action- such as living by the pharisee law or having been baptized or some other rule.

Faith may result in works (see James) but is itself not a work.

Faith in the bible is defined as:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1)

There is no action or ritual that one must do to "earn" their salvation- Faith is sufficient.

l-bow · 07-20-2002, 06:46 PM

funkyres,

According to James, faith without works is dead. How do _sola_fide_ people explain that one away. And why in the NT are converts baptised and are told to be baptised, if baptism is not necessary?

Karen M · 07-20-2002, 07:11 PM

Thank you for your responses Funky and I-bow

Quote:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1)

There is no action or ritual that one must do to "earn" their salvation- Faith is sufficient.

Having faith is an action, is it not? Having faith is something you must do in order to be "saved," correct? I don't understand how this is different from someone who says dying your hair orange is needed to be saved?

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]

07-20-2002, 07:18 PM

To all:

Actually, as James made rather plain, works are the demonstration of faith. Or, as he said, show me me your faith apart from your works...and I by my works will show you my faith. The key to the whole affair is understanding that faith is something more than intellectual acceptance, i.e., I can intellectually accept the resurrection of Christ, but simply have no faith in that resurrection. And perhaps James understood something that many Christians do not, i.e., that getting one's way into heaven is not the ultimate goal, but rather changing the essence of one's being. Faith will go a long way to accomplishing that result whereas mere intellectual acceptance will not.

Gringo · 07-20-2002, 07:24 PM

Most Protestants, such as Methodists, Southern Baptists, Pentacostals, Nazarenes) these days see faith as something a person works to achieve, but many Christians today and many more in the past (Puritans, Primitive Baptists, Presbyterians) see faith as totally God given. They would say faith without works is not faith at all, because if God in all His Soverienty gave you faith, you would automatically produce good works. The works would only be a biproduct of the faith God had given you to which you had no part in gaining. Most Christians today, however, believe that Christans are given more faith when they walk in faith they have been given. But still, they see the faith as God given, whether it has anything to do with what a person has done or not. And both sides agree that more faith, produces more good works.

Karen M · 07-20-2002, 07:39 PM

Okay, let me see if I'm interpreting you two correctly:

Having faith requires no effort and has nothing to do with the individual? It is compleatly God-controlled who does and does not have faith? This is different from a work because a work is something the individual must do to be saved that they have control over doing? Is this what you are saying?

Wouldn't this mean people don't have free will to decide whether or not they want to be saved? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of evangelizing?

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]

07-20-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karen M:
Okay, let me see if I'm interpreting you two correctly:

Having faith requires no effort and has nothing to do with the individual? It is compleatly God-controlled who does and does not have faith? This is different from a work because a work is something the individual must do to be saved that they have control over doing? Is this what you are saying?

Wouldn't this mean people don't have free will to decide whether or not they want to be saved? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of evangelizing?

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]

It depends on what you think the point of evangelism is. I'm not a Christian anymore, but when I was, I was a Calvinist who believed in predestination. If you want to listen to a Calvinist explain stuff, go to <a href="http://www.aomin.org." target="_blank">www.aomin.org.</a>
James White explains a lot of it in his articles and real audio files. (As well, he just wrote a book called "The God Who Justifies" which explains the Protestant position of justification and deals with James vs. Paul. R.C. Sproul also wrote a book call "Faith Alone" which is good, and there are a couple of others...I'll try and think of them)

I could write a ton more...but I really don't care anymore...

FunkyRes · 07-20-2002, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karen M:
Okay, let me see if I'm interpreting you two correctly:

Having faith requires no effort and has nothing to do with the individual? It is compleatly God-controlled who does and does not have faith?

Having faith requires nothing more than believing God.

As the Old Testament says- Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness.

Believe in the Lord and you will be saved.
No actions to demonstrate your faith are required, as demonstrated by the Thief on the cross.

If you have faith, however, good works will follow- because you will be born again, a new creation.

These good works are the result of your faith, not the cause of it.

Yes- one's faith can grow. And hopefully will.
But salvation only requires the faith that you believe God.

Karen M · 07-20-2002, 08:28 PM

Response to Funky:

Yes, but I wasn't asking what having faith requires. I was asking why having faith isn't considered a work?

Do you believe someone can choose to have or not have faith? If it is a choice or action made by the individual, then how is it not a work?

Diddley: Thanks for the link

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]

07-20-2002, 05:01 PM	#1
Karen M Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 235	Protestant Christians: How is Faith not a Work? Greetings all I am under the impression that one of the differences between protestants and catholics is that protestants believe you are "saved" by faith alone and not works. If this is a misrepresentation feel free to correct me. Isn't the definition of "work" in this context something that you must do to get into Heaven? Such as an action or some rule you must follow? How does having faith not qualify as a work?

07-20-2002, 07:39 PM	#7
Karen M Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 235	Okay, let me see if I'm interpreting you two correctly: Having faith requires no effort and has nothing to do with the individual? It is compleatly God-controlled who does and does not have faith? This is different from a work because a work is something the individual must do to be saved that they have control over doing? Is this what you are saying? Wouldn't this mean people don't have free will to decide whether or not they want to be saved? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of evangelizing? [ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]</p>

07-20-2002, 08:28 PM	#10
Karen M Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 235	Response to Funky: Yes, but I wasn't asking what having faith requires. I was asking why having faith isn't considered a work? Do you believe someone can choose to have or not have faith? If it is a choice or action made by the individual, then how is it not a work? Diddley: Thanks for the link [ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Karen M ]</p>

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07-20-2002, 06:36 PM	#2
FunkyRes Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Antioch, CA Posts: 173	A work was an action- such as living by the pharisee law or having been baptized or some other rule. Faith may result in works (see James) but is itself not a work. Faith in the bible is defined as: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1) There is no action or ritual that one must do to "earn" their salvation- Faith is sufficient.

07-20-2002, 06:46 PM	#3
l-bow Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hawaii Posts: 215	funkyres, According to James, faith without works is dead. How do _sola_fide_ people explain that one away. And why in the NT are converts baptised and are told to be baptised, if baptism is not necessary?

07-20-2002, 07:18 PM	#5
Paul5204 Guest Posts: n/a	To all: Actually, as James made rather plain, works are the demonstration of faith. Or, as he said, show me me your faith apart from your works...and I by my works will show you my faith. The key to the whole affair is understanding that faith is something more than intellectual acceptance, i.e., I can intellectually accept the resurrection of Christ, but simply have no faith in that resurrection. And perhaps James understood something that many Christians do not, i.e., that getting one's way into heaven is not the ultimate goal, but rather changing the essence of one's being. Faith will go a long way to accomplishing that result whereas mere intellectual acceptance will not.

07-20-2002, 07:24 PM	#6
Gringo Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: WV Posts: 207	Most Protestants, such as Methodists, Southern Baptists, Pentacostals, Nazarenes) these days see faith as something a person works to achieve, but many Christians today and many more in the past (Puritans, Primitive Baptists, Presbyterians) see faith as totally God given. They would say faith without works is not faith at all, because if God in all His Soverienty gave you faith, you would automatically produce good works. The works would only be a biproduct of the faith God had given you to which you had no part in gaining. Most Christians today, however, believe that Christans are given more faith when they walk in faith they have been given. But still, they see the faith as God given, whether it has anything to do with what a person has done or not. And both sides agree that more faith, produces more good works.

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