Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 05-01-2003, 09:06 AM

It seems that Christians have a few POVs on Satan:

1-That Satan is the accusser(What his name means in Hebrew), and that he is accusser/prosecutor in God's court, as seen in the book of Job and Zechariah. Christians attempting to reconcile this with their theology state that Jesus acts as a sort of advocate through the cross, and hence the 'lawyer' of the human race. However this is not wholly supported by later scriptures. Supporters of this view include apologist JP Holding at www.tektonics.org and pastor Ken Collins at www.kencollins.com, whose teachings

2-That Satan is an evil fallen angel who 'fell from heaven', became 'ruler' of the world, and since then has functioned as a deceiver of man, using his army of demons/angels to assist in his plan. Ultiametly Satan will get tossed into hell at the end of time. This is most in staying in line with the interpetation of the Gospels, the epistles, and the book of Revelation. Many people believe that this interpetation of Satan was inspired by Persian influence.

So any thoughts on this?

Bree · 05-01-2003, 10:40 AM

I find your (2) very interesting. The majority of Christians I know believe that Satan was once an angel of the Lord and "fell from grace" at some point to reign in Hell. However, none of this is in the Bible. The closest reference I can find is somewhere in Genesis, I think, where the "Sons of Man" copulate with mortal women. The story of the flood is all too convenient, I think - the offspring of these Sons of Man are destroyed.

Furthermore, I think it's absolutely hilarious that theists blame Satan for the Fall in the garden of Eden. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan was, in fact, the snake that tempted Eve. All it says is that it was a snake.

lpetrich · 05-01-2003, 11:09 AM

Genesis 6:1-4 (NIV)

When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Beetle · 05-01-2003, 12:54 PM

I don't think that most christians (those who believe in the existence of Satan as a being) would find those views contradictory. They'd say, "yes, Satan is `the accuser of the bretheren' and yes, he's a fallen angel."

Derec · 05-01-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree

Furthermore, I think it's absolutely hilarious that theists blame Satan for the Fall in the garden of Eden. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan was, in fact, the snake that tempted Eve. All it says is that it was a snake.

Actually Revelation calls Satan "that ancient serpent" twice - in 12:9 and 20:2. For fundies that is enough althouth it is just an interpretation of the author of Revelation and not found anywhere else in the Bible.

UMoC

Grad Student Humanist · 05-01-2003, 01:42 PM

The passage being quoted here from Genesis does not refer to the fallen angels who joined forces with Lucifer/Satan to overthrow God in heaven. That entire story is extra-biblical and I have no idea how it entered Xtian mythology.

I would suspect Milton had a huge influence on how Satan is now perceived, but the myths predate his usage of them.

Pyrrho · 05-01-2003, 02:01 PM

Satan is a very problematic character, at least as most Christians seem to regard him. If he is a fallen angel who rebelled against God, this means that angels are not perfect, and sin seems completely possible in heaven. Thus the idea that heaven is a place that is perfect must be false.

Furthermore, Satan is supposed to be intelligent; we are supposed to be on guard against his clever, deceitful ways. Yet even stupid people "know" that God will win in the end. How could Satan fail to realize this? Wouldn't his rebellion really prove that he was a complete moron, far more stupid that the least intelligent Christian who ever lived? (Keep in mind, in this story, Satan has actually seen God and Heaven with his own eyes, so to speak, so Satan isn't likely to have any human doubts about God's existence or power, so he would have to be much, much stupider than any human who "rebels" against God due to disbelief.) Shouldn't God then feel sorry for such a retarded being, and prevent him from doing any harm, either to himself or others?

Additionally, being with God in Heaven is obviously not satisfying, since Satan was not satisfied. So there is no reason to suppose that we will be happy there either (particularly as many Christians seem to believe that people resemble Satan more than God).

Proctors_Gambit · 05-01-2003, 04:07 PM

And not only was Satan not satisfied, but neither were a 3rd of all the angels, who all decided to back him up.
Were they all suitably unimpressed with God as a ruler?

-Gambit

Marduk · 05-01-2003, 04:17 PM

"That entire story is extra-biblical and I have no idea how it entered Xtian mythology."

No, a lot of this is in Revelations, a truly odd book.

In the OT Satan is an angel, he is not rebellious, he is an accuser, he tests people on behalf of his boss. As in Job.
Only following orders.

Marduk · 05-01-2003, 04:22 PM

�And not only was Satan not satisfied, but neither were a 3rd of all the angels, who all decided to back him up.
Were they all suitably unimpressed with God as a ruler?�

Maybe, in some non-Christian theologies the �afterlife� is not discernibly different than this life, there are atheists there as well. You have to keep moving up to get anywhere near God, but the higher you go, the further you can fall.

05-01-2003, 09:06 AM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	The conflicting views of Satan It seems that Christians have a few POVs on Satan: 1-That Satan is the accusser(What his name means in Hebrew), and that he is accusser/prosecutor in God's court, as seen in the book of Job and Zechariah. Christians attempting to reconcile this with their theology state that Jesus acts as a sort of advocate through the cross, and hence the 'lawyer' of the human race. However this is not wholly supported by later scriptures. Supporters of this view include apologist JP Holding at www.tektonics.org and pastor Ken Collins at www.kencollins.com, whose teachings 2-That Satan is an evil fallen angel who 'fell from heaven', became 'ruler' of the world, and since then has functioned as a deceiver of man, using his army of demons/angels to assist in his plan. Ultiametly Satan will get tossed into hell at the end of time. This is most in staying in line with the interpetation of the Gospels, the epistles, and the book of Revelation. Many people believe that this interpetation of Satan was inspired by Persian influence. So any thoughts on this?

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05-01-2003, 10:40 AM	#2
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	I find your (2) very interesting. The majority of Christians I know believe that Satan was once an angel of the Lord and "fell from grace" at some point to reign in Hell. However, none of this is in the Bible. The closest reference I can find is somewhere in Genesis, I think, where the "Sons of Man" copulate with mortal women. The story of the flood is all too convenient, I think - the offspring of these Sons of Man are destroyed. Furthermore, I think it's absolutely hilarious that theists blame Satan for the Fall in the garden of Eden. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Satan was, in fact, the snake that tempted Eve. All it says is that it was a snake.

05-01-2003, 11:09 AM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Genesis 6:1-4 (NIV) When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

05-01-2003, 12:54 PM	#4
Beetle Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Massachusetts State Home for the Bewildered Posts: 961	I don't think that most christians (those who believe in the existence of Satan as a being) would find those views contradictory. They'd say, "yes, Satan is `the accuser of the bretheren' and yes, he's a fallen angel."

05-01-2003, 01:42 PM	#6
Grad Student Humanist Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melrose, MA Posts: 961	The passage being quoted here from Genesis does not refer to the fallen angels who joined forces with Lucifer/Satan to overthrow God in heaven. That entire story is extra-biblical and I have no idea how it entered Xtian mythology. I would suspect Milton had a huge influence on how Satan is now perceived, but the myths predate his usage of them.

05-01-2003, 02:01 PM	#7
Pyrrho Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 7,351	Satan is a very problematic character, at least as most Christians seem to regard him. If he is a fallen angel who rebelled against God, this means that angels are not perfect, and sin seems completely possible in heaven. Thus the idea that heaven is a place that is perfect must be false. Furthermore, Satan is supposed to be intelligent; we are supposed to be on guard against his clever, deceitful ways. Yet even stupid people "know" that God will win in the end. How could Satan fail to realize this? Wouldn't his rebellion really prove that he was a complete moron, far more stupid that the least intelligent Christian who ever lived? (Keep in mind, in this story, Satan has actually seen God and Heaven with his own eyes, so to speak, so Satan isn't likely to have any human doubts about God's existence or power, so he would have to be much, much stupider than any human who "rebels" against God due to disbelief.) Shouldn't God then feel sorry for such a retarded being, and prevent him from doing any harm, either to himself or others? Additionally, being with God in Heaven is obviously not satisfying, since Satan was not satisfied. So there is no reason to suppose that we will be happy there either (particularly as many Christians seem to believe that people resemble Satan more than God).

05-01-2003, 04:07 PM	#8
Proctors_Gambit Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 372	And not only was Satan not satisfied, but neither were a 3rd of all the angels, who all decided to back him up. Were they all suitably unimpressed with God as a ruler? -Gambit

05-01-2003, 04:17 PM	#9
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"That entire story is extra-biblical and I have no idea how it entered Xtian mythology." No, a lot of this is in Revelations, a truly odd book. In the OT Satan is an angel, he is not rebellious, he is an accuser, he tests people on behalf of his boss. As in Job. Only following orders.

05-01-2003, 04:22 PM	#10
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	�And not only was Satan not satisfied, but neither were a 3rd of all the angels, who all decided to back him up. Were they all suitably unimpressed with God as a ruler?� Maybe, in some non-Christian theologies the �afterlife� is not discernibly different than this life, there are atheists there as well. You have to keep moving up to get anywhere near God, but the higher you go, the further you can fall.

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