7thangel

Can God create omnipotent beings? No, right? So He cannot therefore create perfect beings. If God can only create imperfect beings, then God is by itself allowed to do that which is evil; for to create imperfect beings is to create beings that are subject to suffer evil.

I am thinking this is a good arrgument for the existence of evil.

Anyone who wants to discuss?

Keith Russell

7th, 'evil' is simply an evaluation--a human evaluation--of observable actions.

Whether one believes 'evil' exists, depends entirely on how one defines 'evil'.

The actions--regardless of one's belief in, or definition of, 'evil'--remain what they are--

--and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what you imagine 'God' to be capable of...

Keith.

HRG

Not so, since the evidence of two omnipotent beings is not a logical contradiction. They might have agreed that they would only act in concert and kept their promise.

Not at all. An non-omnipotent (and hence not perfect) being which is nevertheless harm-proof and cannot suffer *) is perfectly consistent.

*) unless God himself causes the suffering, in which case he is evil.

Regards,
HRG.

diana

Anytime a person prematurely points me to the conclusion he wants me to draw, I get internal flashing lights and klaxon-like warning sounds.

You just did it.

I'm wondering how you get from A to B.

You've thus defined "perfect" as "including omnipotence," yes? If not, I fail to see how you leapt so nimbly from "God can't create omnipotent beings" to "therefore, he can't create perfect beings."

And thus, "imperfect" implies "evil"? Again...you just made another logical cataclysmic leap that I don't follow.

Quite the oversimplification. To create imperfect beings is simply to create beings that lack perfection. They may be entirely good, but unable to leap tall buildings in a single bound. If you've included "leap tall buildings in a single bound" in your necessary qualities of "perfect," then beings without that quality are imperfect. Good and evil needn't enter into it.

I think it's drivel.

d

happyboy

wow, 7th! :notworthy i feel such awe standing your presence! you have proven, without a shadow of a doubt, that God is not omnipotent! omnipotence implies the ability to do ANYTHING, not "anything but this." if your God was truly all-powerful, then the making of other all-powerful entities ought to be a cakewalk.

of course, this raises the question, "can God create a boulder so heavy even He can't lift it?"

a very amused happyboy

Godot

The first problem in your brilliant argument 7th, is that you equate omnipotence with perfection. Personally I don't see where that one comes from, especially as a book I once read said that "god created man in his own image." Ergo, the image of man is the epitome of perfection. Unless of course someone wants this to devolve into a dialectical on the Platonic world of forms and how god relates to that?



The answer to your query happy my son, is yes he could. But only if he really wanted to. But the ways of god are mysterious and unfathomable to us mere mortals.

braces_for_impact

I agree with Diana, you must show your correlation between omnipotence and perfection. You have to show your logical progression here, because so far, I do not agree with your statements. If I don't even agree with your statements, coming to believe this solves the problem of evil is very unlikely.

I also agree with happyboy as it seems that you have placed limits on a being that most say is without limits. If god is omnipotent, then why not create omnipotence? If he cannot, then he isn't omnipotent to begin with.

Also a question that begs to be asked here is...if god, creates knowing full well his creation will not be perfect and cause evil, then is he not responsible by default? I often see theists attempting to shift the problem of evil away from god and assign it to man, and I have yet to see a good reason why the creator shouldn't be responsible.

7thangel

That is one point I really want to stress -- that good and evil are simply "human" evaluations. Because good and evil is subjective unto our physical, emotional, and mental nature. If we hypothetically presume God to be NATURE, any event that happens naturally, in the perspective of NATURE, good and evil are mere illusions. The flaw of theists-atheists arguments is that both judge God on human perspectives.

This is a human perpective. Yes, because humans are subject to undesirable outcomes.

This is God's perpective. Because God is not subject to any undesirable outcomes.

Do you see my point?

In any case, I am still in progress how to put in words my thoughts. Bear with me if I lack lucidity in words of what I am thinking.

7thangel

On the contrary, what ever actions where both disagreed and had not done it, had by itself set limitation of their powers. In order that one be omnipotent, his actions should not be influenced by another entity.

I define perfection as not lacking in anything. If one lacks in power then he is not perfect.

On the other hand, Do you then consider that if God made us all into stones, then God's work is perfect?

And by the way, your arguments had me realized that I should have had mentioned omniscience and omnipresence. But allow me to work on omnipotence, which I think it is more easier to relay about Godhead.

Mageth

On the contrary, what ever actions where both disagreed and had not done it, had by itself set limitation of their powers.

Voluntarily setting a limit on a power is entirely different from not having a power. I would assume even a "solo god" would choose not to exercise all of its powers for one reason or another.

Further, if you're a Trinitarian Xian, the bible has an example of one god subjecting himself to another god's will (or one god subjecting itself to another portion of itself): "Not my will, but thine."

In order that one be omnipotent, his actions should not be influenced by another entity.

Why not? As I said above, choosing to limit use of one's powers is not the same as not having the powers. One doesn't have to exercise a power to possess the power. Further, both entities could possess the power to annihilate each other, but for one reason or another choose not to exercise that power (it gets lonely at the top).