Photocrat

I've often heard atheists tell us that the world is a pretty backwards place; that all kinds of bad things happen. Also, given enough generations, there's a statistical guarantee that one of your descendants will do something heinous [rape someone, murder someone, whatever] so in a way, reproducing to perpetuate humanity means the perpetuation of human evils, making you partially responsible. Of course, there's a possibility of a future utopia, but most skeptics seem to think that a future distopia--one probably ruled by Big Brother, in which AOL/TimeWarner/M$/DOJ/RIAA/MPAA, AKA 'Omnicorp' is sure to crack down on all freethinking as 'terrorism' with their nifty face-scanning cameras--is far more likely. In any event, after some unthinkable amount of time, we're guaranteed to see the universe run down due to ever increasing entropy making it all futile, anyhow.

So why is procreation a good thing? Does the possibility of future good for humanity as a whole outweigh the perpetuation of human evils, making procreation moral, or not? I'm quite sure that most people aren't pondering this while fulfilling their natural urges, but what are your oppinions on this in a moral context? Or is it just silly to worry about this in the first place? Why?

I think that most people probably think that the good will outweigh the evil done by future humans, thereby rationalizing it, but I would like to hear you tell it. I'm quite sure that everyone will conclude that it is, in fact moral. As do I [hint: I'm not looking for mile-long posts telling me about how prudish some christians have been; I know about them, already, it's not new for any of us & I only care about the atheist/agnostic viewpoints here, anyhow :]

What I really want to hear is the justification of it; how you rationalize the potential of future harm made possible by your actions. Is that wrong or not & *why*?

copernicus

Our descendants, like our ancestors, are different people and responsible for their own actions. It seems rather obvious to me that one's responsibility for immoral acts is directly proportional to one's willful influence on those acts. Perhaps the act of reproduction can only be considered immoral in the sense that it contributes to the overpopulation of the earth, which endangers the human race as a whole.

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: copernicus ]</p>

Eudaimonist

I don't think that the mere choice to have a child makes one responsible for everything that child may choose to do. Parental responsibility is more complex than this.

Parents are responsible for doing what they reasonably can to raise children of good character. If parents fulfill this obligation, I don't see how they can be blamed if the child becomes an evil to others. After all, they acted prudently to ensure that the choice to have children was a sound one. However, parents who choose not to fulfill this obligation can reasonably be blamed if their children turn out to be bad people. If you don't think you can raise good children, you should avoid having them.

pulpyboy

I am the father of 3 children(2 biological and 1 adopted so as not to contribute to overpopulation). The possibility that one of my children or possible future descendants will do something heinous was no consideration in the choice to have children.

It is my responsibility to raise my current children to the best of my ability and help instill in them values, morals, and basic kindness. Hopefully, they will raise their children the same or better and possibly my descendants will help perpetuate the goodness of humankind.

I can only be responsible for my actions and not those of others even if they are somehow related to me. We all make choices in life and have to live with the consequences of those decisions. I have chosen to take the responsibility of parenting seriously and to do the best job I can to raise decent kind and loving children.

The joy that my children bring me and the love I feel for them and from them is what helps to create my most treasured moments of my life.

When I have asked many different people for the 3 best moments of their lives, the replies have always involved other people. It is my contention that our life memories consist mainly of our interaction with others. It is what makes our life seem valuable.

The premise that there is a possible future harm therefore I should not procreate doesn't make sense to me. If I needed surgery to correct a problem and there was a possibility of future harm, then I would need to assess the possibilities and make the appropriate response based on all the information available.

Based on the information available, I chose to procreate.

Makai

As long as you don't procreate to an excessive degree, I see no reason why people should not do so. Asking why people would procreate if their children might do evil is like asking why drive a car, when someone may crash into you and kill themselves. While there is a *chance* you may 'cause' someone's death by braking suddenly, that doesn't mean you shouldn't drive for fear of it. Of course, by driving, you may be 'contributing to the perpetuation of driving deaths', but the possibility of that certianly shouldn't cause a person not to drive. The same concept could be applied to any action. Somehow, *anything* you do could result in the perpetuation of some sort of evil, but that doesn't cause people to commit suicide in droves, for fear of harming humanity.

I think most people would agree that there are more generally 'good' people in the world than generally 'evil' people. If there were more 'evil' people, I don't think any society could function. Since there is a higher probability that your child will be 'good', and contribute to society in a positive way, you would actually be more likely to do harm to society by not reproducing.

-Makai

[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Makai ]</p>

excreationist

In a Reader's Digest I read once it said that the best way to bring up kids with good morals is to set a good example. So if you tell white lies or break the law or bad-mouth people behind their back then the kids are likely to copy this kind of behaviour. If you can't set a good example then I think it is a bad idea to have kids, even if you discipline them or give them rewards, etc, at the right times.

ChurchOfBruce

Well, AFAIC, I think freethinkers procreating is highly moral, because I think the only way we avoid a future dystopia is more freethinkers--and freethinkers tend *not* to raise children to be sheep.

I agree with whoever it was above that said that there's more good in the world than bad. '

However, I *will* say that any decision to procreate or not has selfish and egocentric motives that can't be denied, if you're being honest. Of course *me* having children is moral, *my* children are going to be extraordinary, because they're *mine* . And there weren't any highminded philophical discussions about having kids, either--we had them because we *wanted* to have them.

But, I also agree that raising kids is a responsibility, first and foremost--and, as long as you *recognize* that responsibility, and put aside the less-than-altruistic reasons for *having* kids and be altruistic in your *raising* of them--then I think that's a moral stand to take.

--Frank

tronvillain

How do I rationalize the potential of future harm made possible by my actions? As far as I can tell, I don't. Beyond a short distance, the effects of my actions are lost in the chaos of countless different causal chains, and I do not worry myself about them.

That the vast majority of humanity does not express a desire to have never been born seems to indicate that procreation is widely considered "a good thing." As it is likely that future generations will feel the same way, denying them existence seems unwarranted. That is, unless one holds that it would be better for no human - including one's self - to have ever existed, holding that future generations should not exist seems unreasonable.

abe smith

Moral-schmoral, old dear; until you or someone takes over humankind qua Brave New World, people are going to do as they please, reproduction-wise; & our/your vouchsafing opinions about that isn't either here nor there....

Jamie_L

True, having children does increase (by some infinitessimal degree) the likelihood of evil in the future. However, not having children increases the liklihood (by some infinitessimal degree) that the human race will become extinct through lack of procreation. Wouldn't it be immoral to help usher in the extinction of the human race? The end result, I think, is a wash. It's basically an amoral act to have children. If you intend to instill in them as best you can a sense of morality, then it seems more moral to have kids than to risk leaving procreation solely up to others of unknown morality.

Jamie