Wyz_sub10

You are confusing 'irrational' with 'impossible'. 'Irrational' describes a belief "not endowed with reason or understanding" or "lacking mental clarity or cohesion".

Saying a man could go to Mars 500 years ago would not have been irrational. One could smiply have said "if Mars is suitable and we develop the ability to do so, a man could go there."

There's nothing irrational about that statement.

The examples I provided are irrational because they contradict reason. The latter (at the level of Chrisitianity) demonstrates a lack of mental clarity and cohesion.

BTW... I doubt anyone ever went to jail for sayng the earth is round. Definitely not 500 years ago, to be sure.

This is incorrect - see my comments above. Further, it *is* true that a man can land on the moon. It is not true that he has and it is undetermined if he will.

I agree. And I also agree, for the record, that something may seem irrational to one who does not understand the details. However, not understanding jet propulsion is different that not uderstanding the "one true god". Jet propulsion can be demonstrated, tested, etc.

No, I don't think knowledge is inferior. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Jesus may have taught people what he believed was right. I'm not sure this is "knowledge" in the sense we are discussing it here.

Paul2

I THINK I'M SAVED!!!1

Oh wait, nevermind. That was just gas.

Daisy

Does accepting Christ as your saviour affect grammar? For someone who "virtually received straight As" while holding down three jobs (was dealing one of the three or does that count as a fourth?) and putting in no effort, Robinson sure does write badly. It's also kind of weird the way the smilies he chose contradict the text.

Frankly, I'm impressed that he owns the best looking liquor cabinet he's ever seen. I don't even have a liquor cabinet - we've got bottles on the shelf over the washing machine, in the clothes closet, on the kitchen counter, on the bookshelves next to the books....I sure could use a good looking liquor cabinet to keep my liquor in. Although Robinson was rich before, he didn't get his cabinet until after he converted. Do you think God will give me a better looking liquor cabinet than Robinson's if I convert?

MollyMac

I think that like me, Daisy, you didn't notice that he's actually called himself RobinSIN. Geddit??

Robinsin

Thank-you for all your posts, I am overwhelmed by the responses and efforts that people have taken on this board. I've been on other boards (mostly business) and you can post without a response for weeks. I posted Saturday night and received several posts back before I even finished posting! It's now Tuesday, I've just finished work and received a personal email from Ditsy - only a one liner though?

Honestly, I don't know where to start? It's very over whelming to say the least. Sorry about my grammar, I am not from the States so some of my sayings may be out of context there. I also tend to think faster than I type and miss words? I have not been in school for over 25 years, so it's been awhile? My typing skills are not great either. So please bear with me there, I'll do my best.

Proof. Like a bloody knife, a smoking gun, etc. I don't have - which is obvious. But neither do you? No one has posted any proof anyway? I greatly respect those who have read the Bible and may still, who have been Christians or grown up around the faith. In fact, during the period when I was being converted, these are the people that gave me the most challenges. However, in most instances their experiences where usually personal as to why they left the faith.

Christians can be very hypocrytical, saying one thing, believing another and yet doing something different. Divorce rates are just as high in Christian homes as seculare. Before being a Christian I use to think there was alot of hypocricy in their faith. After becoming a Christian I struggled greatly with my sinful past and nature. I am a sinner. I tried for years to change and become as good as I could, and through time, association and circumstances I couldn't succeed. I am a sinner. For someone who is a non-believer this can appear very hypocritical? It did to me.

Being saved does not prevent or protect me from my sins. I am not a liar and have only written the truth as it is best known to me. Please understand that my story is the way it is; we each have a story and for the best part we can't change it. I am not proud of my past; but it does hummble me, greatly. I cannot judge any person or their past.

I have a very happy family today, and for the most part take 100% responsibility for my families happiness. I work at being a husband, father and friend and do not take these responsibilities lightly. Therefore, if a couple comes to us and discusses their plans to/ or divorce - I could tend to get a little on the offensive side, thinking that something could surely be done to prevent the divorce. However, I was divorced once too, and I personally know that sometimes these things just cannot be worked out. I tried, but failed. My second marriage is 100 times better and we have worked at keeping our marriage strong and healthy. From my present position I could be judgemental of others; however I am hummbled by my past and cannot cast judgements, I can only understand and be a friend.

We have tried to help others keep their marriages together, some did for years, however now years and years have gone by and the marriages we were working with eventually failed? We have Christian friends getting divorced all the time. We're not perfect.

This is only a small example of how my past works in my present day life - I am always learning from my past. Now, two of my children are adults and they're starting their own families (one grandson so far) and I cannot judge them - at all! In fact our children are doing a very good job of leading their lives and we can only be proud of them. They have made mistakes though, but doesn't everyone?

One of the points of my personal story is that we all work hard to strive and make something of our lives. We've all had the get rich quick ideas, or the lottery ticket mentality. We've all wanted something better for our own children. I worked very hard and became successful. But something was still missing in my life. This is probably the biggest thing that pulled me towards my faith. I never had any understanding of God or religions. I never wanted to - who would want to go to Church on Sunday, for what? Perhaps the fact that it was all new to me did help, as I had a fresh take on the whole picture.

I became a Christian because I believe what is written in the Bible. I prayed and searched for the answers to this life on earth. I don't believe we're all here as a coincidence or evalutionary scheme. We were created. God created us in His image, as His children.

If you chose not to believe in God, that is your choice. God has given us all a free choice. All God wants is for His people to have that free choice. He will make the choice available to you, I took my choice seriously and considered it carefully.

For you previous Christian believers, what was it that steered you away from your faith? Was it something that man did? Was it something that you didn't/don't believe from the Bible? Was it some form of man's religious beliefs? I have asked these questions to many of my friends who were Christians at one time, some of who are really turned off by the whole thing. It seems to me that most of the reasons were because the people who were teaching them or their role models for the faith, didn't live up to what they were teaching. I struggle with that with my own children as their role model.

I teach my kids so they can make their own choices. I want them to know what is written in the Bible and how it can apply to our lives. I want them to be caring towards others, to be leaders, examples of good people. We are always taking our life and using it to strongly improve others lives. We teach our kids that we can fail, but Success is judged by your faithfulness to your mission and not by your results. I have great kids and I'm very proud of them. They all have lots of friends and we share our lives with many families. Being a father was probably one of the strongest reasons for my change. Being a Christian father is so rewarding - I love it!

I apologize for not responding directly to some of the posts, most of them are just slams or spins; but I will go through the previous 4 pages of posts and respond where I can. I will not try and preach my beliefs any further, I apologize for being off your formats for that. I don't spend alot of time at the computer, my kids are always doing something on it? I find it a chore just to download my emails and respond to them. I am using the computer more and more for work, with digital camera and emails. When I went to school, there were no computers, so please bear with me here. I'm not a one poster and I would enjoy discussing these ideas/concepts as best I can - it will be a thorough test of my faith, I am sure.

So until then, I'm going to go do some reading, lots of reading.

SanDiegoAtheist

well, I actually DID have a long post in reply here, but vbb ate it while it was "too busy", and left only the quoted post, so screw it.

mods, feel free to delete this post, since I can't.

The San Diego Atheist

WWSD

Originally posted by Robinsin

Proof. Like a bloody knife, a smoking gun, etc. I don't have - which is obvious. But neither do you? No one has posted any proof anyway?

What proof are you requesting here? Proof that god does not exist?
That is impossible to provide. I could ask you to provide evidence that my cats aren't psychic. Or that an invisible green man doesn't live in my computor. It's not possible.

Additionally, I simply lack belief in a god. I don't make the claim that there isn't one at all, I can't know that since I'm not omniscient. It is possible that one exists, but, given the evidence, I highly doubt it.


Before being a Christian I use to think there was alot of hypocricy in their faith. After becoming a Christian I struggled greatly with my sinful past and nature. I am a sinner. I tried for years to change and become as good as I could, and through time, association and circumstances I couldn't succeed. I am a sinner. For someone who is a non-believer this can appear very hypocritical? It did to me.

Not hypocritical, but non-sensical. And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. It just doesn't make plain sense to me. I have to go through a great deal of mental contortions to buy this concept and that is not IMO intellectualy honest.


I have a very happy family today, and for the most part take 100% responsibility for my families happiness.

You should claim all of that 100%.


But something was still missing in my life. This is probably the biggest thing that pulled me towards my faith.

That's fine, for you. I don't feel that there is anything missing in my life.


I became a Christian because I believe what is written in the Bible. I prayed and searched for the answers to this life on earth. I don't believe we're all here as a coincidence or evalutionary scheme. We were created. God created us in His image, as His children.

So you say, but you have no direct evidence, and I require that to believe in something.


If you chose not to believe in God, that is your choice. God has given us all a free choice. All God wants is for His people to have that free choice. He will make the choice available to you, I took my choice seriously and considered it carefully.


I did not choose to not believe, it just happened that way.

Did you choose to not beleive in Kali-Ma? Or would you say that you lack a belief in Kali-Ma? There is a difference outside of semantics IMO.


For you previous Christian believers, what was it that steered you away from your faith? Was it something that man did?

Indeed, it was party something man did, and that was science. And also printing the bible in layman's language so that non-clergy could read it and interpret it themselves.


Was it something that you didn't/don't believe from the Bible?


Yep. I read the bible, and I thought a great deal about what I read, and i concluded that the evidence was not for the existence of a god in the sense of the xtian one.


Was it some form of man's religious beliefs? I have asked these questions to many of my friends who were Christians at one time, some of who are really turned off by the whole thing. It seems to me that most of the reasons were because the people who were teaching them or their role models for the faith, didn't live up to what they were teaching. I struggle with that with my own children as their role model.


Nope. It had nothing to do with religious role models or anything of that sort. It was purely as a result of comtemplating doctire and observing that the universe and reality clashed with the bible's description of it.


Being a father was probably one of the strongest reasons for my change. Being a Christian father is so rewarding - I love it!

I'm glad you enjoy parenting so much. I myself have absolutely no parental instinct whatsoever. It is interesting though, that you state that this is a big reason for your conversion. What exactly about parenting changed your mind on religion?


I apologize for not responding directly to some of the posts, most of them are just slams or spins;

Well, given that we thought you were only going to drop those few posts that were mostly just testimony, we didn't take you very seriously.

But if you come back and actually respond to people and thier points/questions, I think you'll find that we are quite reasonable. Just avoid preaching and you'll be fine.

[/b] I'm not a one poster and I would enjoy discussing these ideas/concepts as best I can - it will be a thorough test of my faith, I am sure.
[/b]

That you can bet on!


So until then, I'm going to go do some reading, lots of reading.


Have fun!

Robinsin

Well, I've started on Page One and this is the first post I feel is worthy of a reply: (edited for brievity)
It is obvious that I'm not a professional and I am timid about being God's representative here, for I know only my faith and Love for God. I will do my best, as requested and reply to the posts that seem sincere.
Onward,

Robinsin

Thanks Fred,
I feel you are sincere and as I've stated before, You will be satisfied with God's plan for your life. He will reveal Himself to you, just continue to pray and read the Bible. It is OK to ask God to give you direction. He will put people and circumstances into your life that will provide you with your answers.

I was at a day when once when I was just about ready to give up on God. I was in my vehicle and called up a business associate, the call rang busy. I slammed the phone down.
Now I'd read that you can tell the size of a man by what makes him mad. Oh boy, here I was the Prez of this/that and doing well by most standards, but as a man I was failing. I believed what I'd read, you can tell the size of a man by what makes him mad. A busy signal??? I was frustrated about receiving God and I said a prayer something like, "show me or I'm giving up". I was sincere to the bone! I wasn't just messin'. Next I was on my drive.... I have a habit of listening to success tapes, books on cassettes and put my current project in to play. The tape had nothing to do with religion or God, it was a business tape on some subject about leadership. Then, the narrator introduces a guest named Dr. John Maxwell and he goes into a speal responding to my exact prayer request. Circumstance? I believed not, it was an answer to prayer that impacted me greatly.
I was introduced to a John Maxwell book about Developing Leadership skills. I am a keen, very keen student of this subject, in fact I've given speeches at gov't/political functions on this very subject. I'd read Maxwell's book and became very interested in his style of writing and respected the man tremendously. John Maxwell is a Christian and his message that morning was a Christian message to business men/women.

This is one example of how God changed my life. He will absolutely change your too, just keep doing what you're doing. I never said it was instant, did I?

I'll pray for you too Fred. If your friends are still offering their prayers, then thank them and ask them to continue. There were entire Churches and many, many people praying for me for over a year. Bless them all.

Robinsin

real cute. what kind of worshipper are you?
I just said a prayer for you cutter