Freethought & Rationalism Archive

anti · 05-30-2003, 11:34 PM

A question that I've always kind of turned around in my mind from time to time was the thought that life can be broken down into a mathematical equation. This is sort of explored in the movie "Pi" if you've seen it, though that's not what sparked my interest in the topic.

Think about it: Every action you make during the day has multiple factors contributing to that effect. You could list many, many things, but I think the four biggest subjects you can lump it into is personal history, immediate history, current mood and current environment. There has to be SOME kind of pattern existing within these. If there wasn't how could we predict people's actions? It's just a neverending string of math. Sorry I can't literate as much as I'd like on this topic, it's pretty late.

I'll save it for the discussion, if one follows. Heh.

Gnomelord · 05-30-2003, 11:39 PM

I hope we're not talking blatant mathmatical relationships here.

Because if we are allow me to throw my bookshelves out the window before we begin discussing.

nermal · 05-31-2003, 04:45 AM

Don't know much about chaos theory, though my degree is in applied math. Never took the course. I think, however, that what you're talking about would fall within the realm of nonlinear mathematics. As such, we could make predictions about large systems over long term, or even make reasonable assumptions about individuals or local systems over the short term, but nothing definitive.
Something I've always wondered, along these lines:
If someone came up with a mathematical model which precisely described the behavior of the stock market, would the existence of the model introduce a variable making the model useless, even if the developer never told anyone else? Or would the existence of the model have to be leaked in order for the model to see itself as a variable?

Ed

Feather · 05-31-2003, 07:37 AM

Well, in the sense that life is a system of organized chemical reactions, then yes it can be. Because the reactions are governed ultimately by the rules of quantum mechanics. Hence the Schrodinger equation describes life, technically speaking.

Unfortunately, nobody currently can solve a three-body problem exactly, much the less a trillion body problem. So the exact details of the solution are unknown.

Corona688 · 05-31-2003, 04:38 PM

Actually, someone DID find a general solution to the 3 body problem - takes an astronomical number of terms to produce an actual result though, so it's not really useful.

wade-w · 06-01-2003, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nermal
Don't know much about chaos theory, though my degree is in applied math. Never took the course. I think, however, that what you're talking about would fall within the realm of nonlinear mathematics. As such, we could make predictions about large systems over long term, or even make reasonable assumptions about individuals or local systems over the short term, but nothing definitive.
Ed

AFAIK, Catastrophe Theory is as close as anyone has come to such a system so far.

ex-xian · 06-01-2003, 07:27 AM

I thought Lagrangre solved the three body problem a long time ago.

AdamWho · 06-01-2003, 10:08 AM

Your idea has been explored before by Asimov in the Foundation series, under the name psychohistory. I know a physist who is try to model large scale human behavoir with stat mech.

Your question seems to be a different angle on the Turing Test.

abe smith · 06-02-2003, 07:48 AM

No. If this categorizes me as some-kina ridiculous Vitalist, guess i"m stuck w/ that. But, NO; you're not going to be able to "reduce" human life to some sort of neat line-or-book of equations. Un-ungh.

Curtis · 06-05-2003, 08:25 PM

Accursed vitalist. I use my great labeling power to name you such!

Keeping in mind that mathematics in science is a language that describes relationships using numbers, I would think that given enough computational power and understanding of physics, one could derive numerical results describing practically every facet of life.

Of course, that's a lot of computational power and understanding, so don't be looking for it any time soon.

05-30-2003, 11:34 PM	#1
anti Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: mich Posts: 9	Can life be broken down into math? A question that I've always kind of turned around in my mind from time to time was the thought that life can be broken down into a mathematical equation. This is sort of explored in the movie "Pi" if you've seen it, though that's not what sparked my interest in the topic. Think about it: Every action you make during the day has multiple factors contributing to that effect. You could list many, many things, but I think the four biggest subjects you can lump it into is personal history, immediate history, current mood and current environment. There has to be SOME kind of pattern existing within these. If there wasn't how could we predict people's actions? It's just a neverending string of math. Sorry I can't literate as much as I'd like on this topic, it's pretty late. I'll save it for the discussion, if one follows. Heh.

06-02-2003, 07:48 AM	#9
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	simple response to your OP No. If this categorizes me as some-kina ridiculous Vitalist, guess i"m stuck w/ that. But, NO; you're not going to be able to "reduce" human life to some sort of neat line-or-book of equations. Un-ungh.

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05-30-2003, 11:39 PM	#2
Gnomelord Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 127	I hope we're not talking blatant mathmatical relationships here. Because if we are allow me to throw my bookshelves out the window before we begin discussing.

05-31-2003, 04:45 AM	#3
nermal Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,969	Don't know much about chaos theory, though my degree is in applied math. Never took the course. I think, however, that what you're talking about would fall within the realm of nonlinear mathematics. As such, we could make predictions about large systems over long term, or even make reasonable assumptions about individuals or local systems over the short term, but nothing definitive. Something I've always wondered, along these lines: If someone came up with a mathematical model which precisely described the behavior of the stock market, would the existence of the model introduce a variable making the model useless, even if the developer never told anyone else? Or would the existence of the model have to be leaked in order for the model to see itself as a variable? Ed

05-31-2003, 07:37 AM	#4
Feather Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 1,827	Well, in the sense that life is a system of organized chemical reactions, then yes it can be. Because the reactions are governed ultimately by the rules of quantum mechanics. Hence the Schrodinger equation describes life, technically speaking. Unfortunately, nobody currently can solve a three-body problem exactly, much the less a trillion body problem. So the exact details of the solution are unknown.

05-31-2003, 04:38 PM	#5
Corona688 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Hiding from Julian ;) Posts: 5,368	Actually, someone DID find a general solution to the 3 body problem - takes an astronomical number of terms to produce an actual result though, so it's not really useful.

06-01-2003, 07:27 AM	#7
ex-xian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 4,679	I thought Lagrangre solved the three body problem a long time ago.

06-01-2003, 10:08 AM	#8
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	Your idea has been explored before by Asimov in the Foundation series, under the name psychohistory. I know a physist who is try to model large scale human behavoir with stat mech. Your question seems to be a different angle on the Turing Test.

06-05-2003, 08:25 PM	#10
Curtis Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 238	Accursed vitalist. I use my great labeling power to name you such! Keeping in mind that mathematics in science is a language that describes relationships using numbers, I would think that given enough computational power and understanding of physics, one could derive numerical results describing practically every facet of life. Of course, that's a lot of computational power and understanding, so don't be looking for it any time soon.

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