Jorge

Originally posted by missus_gumby

WHOA!

OK. Calm down folks! I know we've got a live one here, but there's no need to go OTT.

"Live one", indeed.

In fact, I think we ought to lay off Jorge a little, after all, he's the one who thinks these creatures:



...exist in reality. See Isaiah 11:08, 14:29, 59:05, and Jeremiah 8:17 for proof. I'm sure he'll provide extra-biblical evidence for their existence, otherwise the bible would have at least four errors in it wouldn't it?

Hey, that's a good one, MG. But if you really wanna swap in 'creatures', I can pull out all of my previous editions of Scientific American and I'll show you some REAL lulus straight out of the deepest imaginations of materialistic "pseudo-scientists"!

Jorge

Jorge

Your opinion, sir, is duly noted.

As is anyone else that shares that opinion.

Next, please...

Jorge

viscousmemories

Let me rephrase this for the audience taking all of your other "points" into consideration too. It's really funnier when you look at your comments for what they really are, trust me on this:

So you've found 1000 or so "discrepancies" in the bible? So what? I personally know of at least 31,000 "discrepancies", and I don't have to keep counting to know there is no final number! That's the beauty of blind faith! "Discrepancies" be damned! There needn't be a single shred of provable testimony in that book, I'll believe every single word I read! So you have your fancy "facts" and "figures" that you so praise. Well My God has told me that My Heart is pure, and therefore I don't need no stinkin' evidence! All I need to do is keep saying the same thing over and over again as often and as loud as possible, and I will eventually be shown to be right!

"Discrepancies"! Bah! I laugh at your "discrepancies"! What you fail to accept is that the reason that you don't understand a word I'm saying is because My God hasn't given you the special power to see the truth. In fact it wouldn't surprise me at all if what you hear coming from my mouth is nothing but gibberish. That's because I'm speaking My God's language, fool! Now listen, believe, and obey. But stop embarrasing yourself with this "reason" and "logic" and "debate". You only prove your unworthiness before Him.

Haran

Jorge,

Perhaps the greek font was unreadable for some reason...

If you don't want to debate the inconsistencies, then how about presenting some facts about the Bible that others might be interested in.

Do you know what the oldest manuscript of the New Testament is and what book it is supposed to represent?

It would help others to see some of the knowledge you seem to be claiming. Are you claiming more knowledge about the Bible than others here?

missus_gumby

Nope, don't want to swap anything - I'm not making an evidential claim. On the other hand, you are -- that of biblical inerrancy. Therefore it is up to you to prove that cockatrices exist or have existed in reality, and until that proof arrives, there is no reason for anyone on the planet to consider that the bible is free of errors. Oh, and you forgot the sackbut thing.

Martin

Asha'man

This was either ignored or missed the first time I posted it, so I’ll repeat it here.

A fundamental rule of written communication: if the intended audience fails to understand the material, then the author has failed to communicate.

Either your reading comprehension is pathetic, or the Bible is an extremely poorly written book.

Let me get this straight: God has an important message for us. If we fail to understand and believe the message, we go to hell for all eternity. God really wants us to get this message, because he cares about each of us individually.

However, God is so incompetent or apathetic, he puts his message entirely in a poorly written book, one full of confusion, contradictions, inaccuracies, and just plain fantasy. He also writes that book in a language that nobody knows anymore, so that translation errors are virtually guaranteed.

I think my point has been proven.
So, this critical message that God wants us to have, if you don’t already believe it, you can’t possibly understand and accept it? Doesn’t that make the message pointless? The only people who need it, can’t have it, and the only people who have it, don’t need it.
If an omnipotent being was trying to communicate that message to me, then I expect perfect understanding. Otherwise, it proves that the message wasn’t generated by an omnipotent being, right?
Of course it has! You have no choice but to cling to your faith harder and harder, since reason and logic are being smothered. Faith is belief without reason or evidence, faith is letting your wants and need override your higher thinking capacity. You say that you have studied the bible, read it thoroughly, found numerous discrepancies. Logically, you would have to reject it as a message from an omnipotent being. Instead, you stick your fingers in your ears and chant “LaLaLa” until your higher brain functions shut down. Only your need and desire is left, so faith is the only possible path!

And I should point out that those genealogies are not “discrepancies.” A discrepancy would be leaving out a great-grandfather, or remembering a name as James instead of John. The two genealogies are completely and utterly different. They have no basis in historical truth, and thus must be fabrications. (Actually, it might be only one that is a fabrication, but I think it is both) This is very important, realizing that there are theologically motivated fabrications in the middle of the most important part of the bible. A genealogy isn’t a metaphor, it isn’t a parable, it is supposed to be a simple record of history, read literally. But somebody is lying to me about history. How can anyone trust the rest of the message knowing that it is written around such fantasy?

Jorge

Roland... ... ...

I must confess that English is a second language to me and sometimes I don't write as clearly as I'd like.

However, I reviewed my response to you and it is as clear as I can possibly make it. Yet you speak here again of 'specific cases'. Did you not understand what I responded to you? Maybe if you went back and read it again...

What I responded to you was wholly substantive.

Jorge

Roland

Jorge -

Your response was NOT substantive at all. I asked you to explain the "contradiction" between Luke and John's accounts of Jesus' first appearance to the disciples.

Rather than do that, you ended up psychoanalyzing the possible responses I would have to YOUR response (which you never gave me, by the way).

That is not engaging in substantive debate. I threw out a "contradiction" in the Bible, as I see it. It is your job on here to now explain to me why it is not really a contradiction. If you don't, I wil be forced to conclude that you really have no response to my question and the contradiction will stand as such. Fish or cut bait as they say. Otherwise, you are one lousy debater.

Haran

Jorge,

If you are not a troll and are sincere, then please reconsider what you are trying to accomplish here and how you are going about it. What are your fruits so far?

Roland

Luke 24:


[33] And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and THEY FOUND THE ELEVEN gathered together and those who were with them,
[34] who said, "The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!"
[35] Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.
[36] As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them.
[37] But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit.
[38] And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts?
[39] See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
[41] And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"
[42] They gave him a piece of broiled fish,
[43] and he took it and ate before them.
[44] Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled."
[45] Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
[46] and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
[47] and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
[48] You are witnesses of these things.
[49] And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high."
[50] Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.
[51] While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven.
[52] And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
[53] and were continually in the temple blessing God.

John 20:

[19] On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
[20] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
[21] Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
[24] NOW THOMAS, one of the twelve, called the Twin, WAS NOT WITH THEM when Jesus came.