Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 07-26-2002, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Agnos1:
It would be interesting if someone on this board could elucidate how historians have determined the extreme likelihood of Socrates' existence and how that compares, using the same methodology, to determining the historocity of Jesus one way or the other. There should be a mountain of evidence or non-evidence for both figures. Thanks

Ag

...

Any takers?

Philosoft · 07-26-2002, 05:00 PM

How about the total lack of earlier myths/stories that bear striking resemblances to a legendary thinker/philosopher?

Maybe not motive, but certainly means and opportunity.

Tharmas · 07-26-2002, 05:10 PM

I�m interested in this question too. I�m not a historian, but I remember participating in discussions in graduate school (English Lit, and many many moons ago) about how much of Socrates was in fact just a literary invention of Plato.

So, first, what historians have determined this? How much beyond the mere fact (or relative probability?) of his existence have they determined? Was he actually condemned to death for atheism? Was he actually married to a shrewish wife? Did he teach by using the �Socratic� method? How much do we know outside of Plato�s writings?

Bokonon · 07-26-2002, 05:33 PM

My response to that is simple. Our fate for eternity does not hinge on the accuracy of what has been attributed to Socrates.

Whether or not he truly existed is an interesting historical question that has produced interesting debate. But it's not a life or death question.

Grumpy · 07-26-2002, 05:34 PM

From what I've heard, Socrates could very well be the invention of Plato -- a fictitious mouthpiece for his philosophical arguments. And you know what? It doesn't take away from Socrates at all. The literal existence of Socrates is not necessary to confirm the validity (or lack thereof) of the arguments advanced in his name.

Vorkosigan · 07-26-2002, 07:03 PM

I thought, in addition to Plato, Aristophanes wrote a play in which he appears, and Xenophon wrote about him. Aristotle also appears to know of independent sources on Socrates, although he never met him -- but he did know Plato. In any case, what in the history as we have it suggests that Socrates never existed?

Vorkosigan

lcb · 07-26-2002, 07:23 PM

devil's advocate: how many medical missionary clinics, orphanages, hospitals,feeding centers,charity centers have been founded in the name of Socrates? how many in the name of Jesus? French philosopher Servrancxe "to exist supreme is to have maximized the proliferation of one's will upon the world"....

Vorkosigan · 07-26-2002, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
devil's advocate: how many medical missionary clinics, orphanages, hospitals,feeding centers,charity centers have been founded in the name of Socrates? how many in the name of Jesus? French philosopher Servrancxe "to exist supreme is to have maximized the proliferation of one's will upon the world"....

This is not evidence of anything except the hard work of Christians. Can we get back to the discussion at hand? What to you suggests the possibility of Socrates non-existence?

Vorkosigan

lcb · 07-26-2002, 07:28 PM

i love socrates, i was born using the socratic method! i accept socrates' existence in part because i dont see what anyone would have to gain by making it up.

Vorkosigan · 07-26-2002, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
i love socrates, i was born using the socratic method! i accept socrates' existence in part because i dont see what anyone would have to gain by making it up.

Nevertheless, one can easily posit a scenario where Plato simply produces him as the idealized form of the Philosopher, in indignant response to the comic figure from Aristophanes. I don't buy it either, but there it is.

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07-26-2002, 05:00 PM	#2
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	How about the total lack of earlier myths/stories that bear striking resemblances to a legendary thinker/philosopher? Maybe not motive, but certainly means and opportunity.

07-26-2002, 05:10 PM	#3
Tharmas Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 184	I�m interested in this question too. I�m not a historian, but I remember participating in discussions in graduate school (English Lit, and many many moons ago) about how much of Socrates was in fact just a literary invention of Plato. So, first, what historians have determined this? How much beyond the mere fact (or relative probability?) of his existence have they determined? Was he actually condemned to death for atheism? Was he actually married to a shrewish wife? Did he teach by using the �Socratic� method? How much do we know outside of Plato�s writings?

07-26-2002, 05:33 PM	#4
Bokonon Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Left of the Mississippi Posts: 138	My response to that is simple. Our fate for eternity does not hinge on the accuracy of what has been attributed to Socrates. Whether or not he truly existed is an interesting historical question that has produced interesting debate. But it's not a life or death question.

07-26-2002, 05:34 PM	#5
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	From what I've heard, Socrates could very well be the invention of Plato -- a fictitious mouthpiece for his philosophical arguments. And you know what? It doesn't take away from Socrates at all. The literal existence of Socrates is not necessary to confirm the validity (or lack thereof) of the arguments advanced in his name.

07-26-2002, 07:03 PM	#6
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I thought, in addition to Plato, Aristophanes wrote a play in which he appears, and Xenophon wrote about him. Aristotle also appears to know of independent sources on Socrates, although he never met him -- but he did know Plato. In any case, what in the history as we have it suggests that Socrates never existed? Vorkosigan

07-26-2002, 07:23 PM	#7
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	devil's advocate: how many medical missionary clinics, orphanages, hospitals,feeding centers,charity centers have been founded in the name of Socrates? how many in the name of Jesus? French philosopher Servrancxe "to exist supreme is to have maximized the proliferation of one's will upon the world"....

07-26-2002, 07:28 PM	#9
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	i love socrates, i was born using the socratic method! i accept socrates' existence in part because i dont see what anyone would have to gain by making it up.

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